Sodom and Gomorrah Discovered

[shunyadragon]

I thought you said you wanted to keep this thread on topic.

It most definitely remains on topic. The interview is highly relevant as to what is the evidence for the Biblical figures, ie Patriarchs like Abraham, and the events.

The bottom line is there is not any archeological evidence for the existence of Abraham and Lot.

[tabibito]

The interview states that no direct evidence of an Abraham like figure can be expected - and that same circumstance would extend also to Lot.

Nothing is available dating the existence of Abraham and Lot to that time. See interview posted.

The account of the destruction of the cities is accurately recorded by the Bible. Someone witnessed the event and passed the information on. Has an alternative possibility for the source been advanced?

[shunyadragon]

The Bible would have us believe that the Israelites embraced henotheism from the time of Moses, and that select Ancestors of the Israelites embraced henotheism from the time of Abraham. The Bible never makes the claim that Israel was monotheistic. There are periods where the Bible records long periods of a strong presence of polytheism. Of course, given the fact that the Hebrew religious practice had little in the way of artifacts, no evidence of YHVH worship can be expected. There is good cause to believe that "polytheism was the norm" is an exaggerated claim - on the basis of archaeological finds: "there was a strong polytheistic presence" and no more than that can rightly be claimed.

There need not be any more evidence. The difference between "polytheism was the norm" and "there was a strong polytheistic presence" is the difference between one frog hair and another.

But at least the works you cite do acknowledge that YHVH worship was dominant in post exilic Israel.

Yes, this is the case.

[tabibito]

There is good cause to believe that "polytheism was the norm" is an exaggerated claim - on the basis of archaeological finds: "there was a strong polytheistic presence" and no more than that can rightly be claimed.

These are two very different claims - "polytheism was the norm" states that polytheism was the significant majority practice. "a strong polytheistic presence" has a broader range that can extend from a significant minority to something of a majority.

There is also the matter of "long periods of a strong presence" - which assuredly did reach the point of being a significant majority on at least one occasion. But the Bible also records alternating times of a significant majority of YHVH worshippers.

[shunyadragon]

These are two very different claims - "polytheism was the norm" states that polytheism was the significant majority practice. "a strong polytheistic presence" has a broader range that can extend from a significant minority to something of a majority.

Maybe different claims, but based on the evidence either may well be true with the predominance of idols in the households. Based on the evidence one can be easily prejudiced to believe "a strong polytheistic presence." The problem is the lack of evidence of monotheism.

[tabibito]

Maybe different claims, but based on the evidence either may well be true with the predominance of idols in the households. Based on the evidence one can be easily prejudiced to believe "a strong polytheistic presence." The problem is the lack of evidence of monotheism.

There is also the matter of "long periods of a strong presence" - which assuredly did reach the point of being a significant majority on at least one occasion. But the Bible also records alternating times of a significant majority of YHVH worshippers.
What evidence of YHWH worship would be found? The idols and paraphernalia associated with polytheism were forbidden to worshippers of YHVH.

[shunyadragon]

There is also the matter of "long periods of a strong presence" - which assuredly did reach the point of being a significant majority on at least one occasion. But the Bible also records alternating times of a significant majority of YHVH worshippers.

It remains too subjective either way with the many idols lying around.

What evidence of YHWH worship would be found? The idols and paraphernalia associated with polytheism were forbidden to worshippers of YHVH.

Some tablets indicating such would help, or maybe some parts of the Torah indicating this. Maybe places of worship with evidence of monotheism, but none exists until after the exile.

[tabibito]

By "Torah" do you mean the Old Testament?

[Mr. Anderson]

Someone can't count correctly. The 6th century is 501-600. The 7th century is 601-700. You are off by 200 years.

Thank you for the correction. That is so odd. Wonder why Shuny let me slide on that. He must have been playing kindly with my foolishness.

[Mr. Anderson]

In a previous post I acknowledge a range of ~800 -600 BCE. I do not completely dismiss Hebrew beliefs and scripture, especially around this period. I consider Hebrew beliefs and scripture evolved from different sources, and not written as they are at an early period, like at the time of Exodus, and Genesis events like Sodom and Gomorrah. Many events in the Pentateuch are likely loosely based on actual events and oral handed down accounts and earlier partial written accounts of those events like cuneiform tablets.

I consider the Pentateuch to be evolved ancient literature like in other ancient culture in India and China.

Correct

As to the relationship between the Ugarit and Hebrew the view is not as clear as you describe. Some scholars do consider Hebrew to be evolved and intimately related to Ugarit, Pheonician and Canaanite including intermediates of Proto Canaanite. Trade is a strong motivation for the development of languages over time, and trade between these cultures was important. As far as trade goes, archeology shows that Pheonicians, Canaanites, and Ugarits were major players in trade, Hebrews were not until their later history, because they were predominately a pastoral culture, and the cultures more involved with trade dominantly linguistically.

My concern was for religious belief only and I fully acknowledge that later Hebrew derived from Ugaritic and other Canaanite sources.

[shunyadragon]

By "Torah" do you mean the Old Testament?

Back then it would very new.

[Mr. Anderson]

It remains too subjective either way with the many idols lying around.



Some tablets indicating such would help, or maybe some parts of the Torah indicating this. Maybe places of worship with evidence of monotheism, but none exists until after the exile.

You've got Dever responding in a limited fashion during an interview about the Iron age hilltop settlements. In his book, quoted in an earlier post he give the full on description of what was found within the remains. Of the more than 300 discovered village sites they have found only one small isolated hilltop shrine in the Samaria hills, with an alter platform, and one large standing stone (masseba), a terra cotta cult stand and a well preserved bronze bull figurine. Suggesting connections to the Canaanite cult of the male deity El, whose principle epithet was "Bull El." El remained one of the two names of the Israelite national god. In the future more will surely be found that could lead in any direction. But I think the lack of cult items found at these sites give rise to the idea that this people group was different from any around them. Right down to the absence of pork bones.

There is reasonable evidence to propose a non-polytheistic prototype could have existed in this time frame though not a purely monotheistic one either. However I would doubt that Dever would agree with this statement. Yet he does provide the information. Even though this isn't the textual evidence you would like it is probably the the best that can be given. Probable, yet not provable.

[LostSheep]

You've got Dever responding in a limited fashion during an interview about the Iron age hilltop settlements. In his book, quoted in an earlier post he give the full on description of what was found within the remains. Of the more than 300 discovered village sites they have found only one small isolated hilltop shrine in the Samaria hills, with an alter platform, and one large standing stone (masseba), a terra cotta cult stand and a well preserved bronze bull figurine. Suggesting connections to the Canaanite cult of the male deity El, whose principle epithet was "Bull El." El remained one of the two names of the Israelite national god. In the future more will surely be found that could lead in any direction. But I think the lack of cult items found at these sites give rise to the idea that this people group was different from any around them. Right down to the absence of pork bones.

There is reasonable evidence to propose a non-polytheistic prototype could have existed in this time frame though not a purely monotheistic one either. However I would doubt that Dever would agree with this statement. Yet he does provide the information. Even though this isn't the textual evidence you would like it is probably the the best that can be given. Probable, yet not provable.

Amen to this post, Mr. Anderson

[tabibito]

Beginning at 1 Kings 16:30, through 1 Kings 19:10,18 (cited at Romans 11:3-4) and beyond, during the reign of Ahab, his actions and those of Jezebel and Elijah are documented. That pagan practices are ascendant during that time is asserted.

As it turns out, what archaeology has learnt, the Bible attests: After Solomon's reign and until the end of Jehoshophat's reign, YHVH worship was for the most part restricted to within the tribe of Judah.

[shunyadragon]

You've got Dever responding in a limited fashion during an interview about the Iron age hilltop settlements. In his book, quoted in an earlier post he give the full on description of what was found within the remains. Of the more than 300 discovered village sites they have found only one small isolated hilltop shrine in the Samaria hills, with an alter platform, and one large standing stone (masseba), a terra cotta cult stand and a well preserved bronze bull figurine. Suggesting connections to the Canaanite cult of the male deity El, whose principle epithet was "Bull El." El remained one of the two names of the Israelite national god. In the future more will surely be found that could lead in any direction. But I think the lack of cult items found at these sites give rise to the idea that this people group was different from any around them. Right down to the absence of pork bones.

The problem of the lack of pig bones can be attributed to the climate and the culture. No Neolithic to early Iron Age pastoral culture in semi arid to arid climate in human history that raised pigs for food. The Hebrew originally were a pastoral culture in a semiarid to arid region In the Middle East those cultures that raised pigs as a part of their diet were pretty much in river valleys like the Nile, and mesic climate cultures on the coast and north of the range of the Hebrew Culture. There is disagreement among anthropologists as to why ancient cultures did or did not eat swine, but the facts of the climate influence is clear.

There is reasonable evidence to propose a non-polytheistic prototype could have existed in this time frame though not a purely monotheistic one either. However I would doubt that Dever would agree with this statement. Yet he does provide the information. Even though this isn't the textual evidence you would like it is probably the the best that can be given. Probable, yet not provable.

Middle Eastern ancient cultures including the Ugarit, Canaanite and pre-Babylonian are what I call 'Hierarchical Polytheistic' where there was a central most powerful God and lesser Gods, or Gods that are in some way subservient or specialized Gods under the Greater God. Some Gods are consider adversary Gods of other cultures. This is similar to the Vedic religions of India where Brahman is the Greater God among lesser Gods, or Gods that are in some way subservient or a part of or attributes of the Brahman.

A good description and differing opinions of the polytheism/monotheism of Hebrew culture may be found here in the Appendix: Monotheism and Polytheism in Ancient Israel beginning on p145 at

http://www.academia.edu/1857268/Mono...ncient_Israel_


Examples of polytheistic cultures that have weak or no hierarchies are ancient China, Greece and Rome.