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Thread: Sodom and Gomorrah Discovered

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Maybe in a natural gas explosion, many buildings were leveled or partially leveled at and near the locus of the explosion? I.e., there should be evidence of a natural gas explosion that does not appear with just fire raining down from the heavens.
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  2. #12
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
    Maybe in a natural gas explosion, many buildings were leveled or partially leveled at and near the locus of the explosion? I.e., there should be evidence of a natural gas explosion that does not appear with just fire raining down from the heavens.
    The Natural Gas explosion of this type does not necessarily occur at one location like a bomb. The gas escapes spreads and then explodes when ignited possibly a number of smaller explosions and fires. The earthquake and landslide can level many buildings. The possibility of liquefaction during the earthquake is another possibility that can level large areas of cities as commonly observed in earthquakes over time. The evidence of this type of natural gas explosion could be multiple explosions from the spread of natural gas from vents, and would simply be the observed destruction by fire. buildings not destroyed by the earthquake, and landslides would be destroyed by fire. It is also the fires may have been started when the roofs collapsed in cooking fires.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

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  3. #13
    tWebber TimelessTheist's Avatar
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    The gas escapes spreads and then explodes when ignited possibly a number of smaller explosions and fires.
    Really, over two cities?

    The earthquake and landslide can level many buildings.
    This is relevant how?

    The possibility of liquefaction during the earthquake is another possibility that can level large areas of cities as commonly observed in earthquakes over time.
    Once again, how is this relevant? The houses were burned down.

    It is also the fires may have been started when the roofs collapsed in cooking fires.
    What does this even mean? Are you saying that the cooking fires caught the roofs on fire?
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  4. #14
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimelessTheist View Post
    Really, over two cities?
    Yes, When the earthquakes occur in the region, gas venting can occur over the region of the earthquake. The gas deposits underlie the whole region of the Dead Sea Basin. Actually there are more and most including these cites? are more like towns.



    This is relevant how?
    The earthquake and landslide can level many buildings, and the fires can burn the roof materials after they collapse.



    Once again, how is this relevant? The houses were burned down.
    True. So what? the fires likely have a natural cause. Oakum's razor rules!

    What does this even mean? Are you saying that the cooking fires caught the roofs on fire?
    The houses collapsed in the earthquakes and mudslides. Actually the evidence is clear, they collapsed. There is no evidence that the fires started before they collapsed. There is evidence of massive earthquake and landslides.

    Source: http://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium-1.569560



    Natural disaster, not hand of God?

    If the city-kingdoms did in fact exist, those unconvinced by a literalist reading of scripture suspect their end was brought about by an indiscriminate natural disaster, not a targeted genocide perpetrated by a puritanical being upstairs. Geologists such as Frederick G. Clapp, then Graham Harris and Anthony Beardow, posit that that the Dead Sea region, perched on top of the tectonic boundary between the Arabian and African Plates as it is, was struck by a massive earthquake that fits the relevant timeframe.

    Analysis of rock faces, crushed skeletal remains and scientific simulations lend credence to the possibility that a quake liquefied the ground, igniting underground methane and the region’s abundant bitumen deposits, and possibly caused a catastrophic landslide. Latter-day drilling has found oil and gas in the region's rocks, if not in commercial quantities.

    Harris and Beardow concluded that the most likely location of the ruins is under the shallow waters of the southern Dead Sea.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-26-2014 at 08:48 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  5. #15
    tWebber TimelessTheist's Avatar
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    Yes, When the earthquakes occur in the region, gas venting can occur over the region of the earthquake. The gas deposits underlie the whole region of the Dead Sea Basin. Actually there are more and most including these cites? are more like towns.
    Once again, if that were the case, the entire buildings of the cities should have been incinerated all at once, which the archaeological data says is not true.

    The earthquake and landslide can level many buildings, and the fires can burn the roof materials after they collapse
    Save for the fact that the data shows that the roofs caught on fire first, and that the buildings collapsed 'because' of that.

    True. So what? the fires likely have a natural cause. Oakum's razor rules!
    I'm not sure what "Oakum's" Razor is, exactly.

    The houses collapsed in the earthquakes and mudslides. Actually the evidence is clear, they collapsed. There is no evidence that the fires started before they collapsed. There is evidence of massive earthquake and landslides.
    The evidence is listed, and sourced in the article. Sorry, but the article you cited isn't even talking about the site elaborated upon in the article I cited, heck, it isn't even talking about a specific site, at all.
    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

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    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

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  6. #16
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimelessTheist View Post
    Once again, if that were the case, the entire buildings of the cities should have been incinerated all at once, which the archaeological data says is not true.
    Not necessarily so.

    Save for the fact that the data shows that the roofs caught on fire first, and that the buildings collapsed 'because' of that.
    False, there is no evidence of this. The evidence indicates that there was an earthquake and landslides that collapsed the buildings.



    [quote]I'm not sure what "Oakum's" Razor is, exactly.

    d sorry for the spelling error Occam's Razor. The Natural cause is the best choice without trying to contort things to fit the supernatural.



    The evidence is listed, and sourced in the article. Sorry, but the article you cited isn't even talking about the site elaborated upon in the article I cited, heck, it isn't even talking about a specific site, at all.
    Correct it is about the archeological and geological evidence for the sites including the one ones in your article. It is relevant to The first article does not support case.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  7. #17
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimelessTheist View Post
    1) If it was a giant explosion of natural gas, as you say, the entire house should have been encased in flames instantaneously, not the roofs, and then worked its way down to the rest of the house.
    Gas explosions such as these are not usually one big explosion. I fell I already made that clear. I do not believe you have the background for understanding this type of geologic events

    2) The evidence that the roofs caught on fire first is, once again, in the article. Perhaps you should actually read it this time?
    I just reread the article, and only found two reference that one wall apparently collapsed after the fire. Both not conclusive as you state.

    Source: http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/04/16/The-Discovery-of-the-Sin-Cities-of-Sodom-and-Gomorrah.aspx

    Not infrequently there was mudbrick detritus over the ash, which had resulted from the collapse of the mudbrick superstructures after the final conflagration.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Another state a wall fell on ash.

    Note the above is qualified by 'not infrequently,' which cannot be stretched for your supernatural conclusions. There is no problem with 'some' walls weakened by the earth quake to fall after the fire.

    I did find this:

    Source: http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/04/16/The-Discovery-of-the-Sin-Cities-of-Sodom-and-Gomorrah.aspx



    Clapp found that the region south of the Dead Sea is very unstable, being bordered by fault lines on the east and west. Earthquakes are common in this area. After surveying the geology of the district, Clapp concluded that combustible materials from the earth destroyed the cities. He found bitumen and petroleum in the area. Natural gas and sulfur, which normally accompany bitumen and petroleum, are also present. These combustible materials could have been forced from the earth by subterranean pressure brought about by an earthquake resulting from the shifting of the bounding faults (Clapp 1936a: 906; 1936b: 40). Geologists who have studied the area in recent times agree with Clapp's reconstruction (Harris and Beardow 1995: 360; Neev and Emery 1995: 13–14; 33, 37). If lightning or surface fires ignited these combustibles as they came spewing forth from the ground, it would indeed result in a holocaust such as described in Genesis 19. It is significant to note that both Bab edh-Dhra and Numeira lie at the edge of the plain, exactly on the eastern fault line!


    That an earthquake occurred at the time the cities were destroyed is clear from the work of geologist Jack Donahue of the University of Pittsburgh. At Bab edh-Dhra he found that during the period of occupation there was sedimentation, or infilling, and a build up of cultural debris (Donahue 1985: 135). Following the destruction, this changed to an erosional regime, brought about by an uplift of the area (Donahue 1980: 50; 1985: 134–36). The uplift produced an increase in the elevation differential between the town site and the Wadi Kerak on the north side of at least 28 m (92 ft) (Donahue 1985: 134).This resulted in severe erosion on the north side of Bab edh-Dhra, causing the north wall to eventually collapse into the wadi (Donahue 1985: 136).

    © Copyright Original Source




    3) The data says the two cities were destroyed, in the same manner, almost instantaneously.
    No problem if they were destroyed by the same natural event.



    There's no way a natural gas explosion could have done that. The researchers know this, and that's why they try to assert that the destruction was at the hands of humans (which is also refuted in the article).
    You need to cite sources to support this beyond simple assertions.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-27-2014 at 07:47 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  8. #18
    tWebber TimelessTheist's Avatar
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    Not necessarily so.
    Uh, yes, actually. If there was a gas explosion large enough to take out two cities, everything would've been incinerated instantaneously.

    False, there is no evidence of this. The evidence indicates that there was an earthquake and landslides that collapsed the buildings.
    It cites several sources saying so.

    The Natural cause is the best choice without trying to contort things to fit the supernatural.
    If you can't name a known natural cause then no, it is not.

    Correct it is about the archeological and geological evidence for the sites including the one ones in your article. It is relevant to The first article does not support case.
    Since it doesn't actually talk about the site in particular, there's nothing to worry about.
    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

    -Thomas Aquinas

    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

    -Hernando Cortez

    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

  9. #19
    tWebber TimelessTheist's Avatar
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    Oh, and this:

    "The excavation of Charnel House A22, however, has laid that theory to rest. It is now evident that the roof, engulfed in flames, collapsed into the building and caused the interior burning:
    The extensive burn is clear evidence of the tomb's destruction by fire. Burning was concentrated along the interior wall in the center of both sectors, where the majority of posts and beams were uncovered. Along the south wall impressions of desiccated beams angled down toward the interior transverse wall, indicating that they had collapsed in the center across the interior wall (Rast and Schaub 1980: 37).
    The destruction of the charnel houses at Bab edh-Dhra was brought about by the roofs first being set on fire, then collapsing, causing the interiors of the buildings to burn. This is entirely consistent with the Biblical description of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, when "the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens" (Gn 19:24)."

    That pretty much puts the whole "natural gas" theory to rest. If the natural gas, set alight, came spewing out of the ground as the end result of an earthquake, it would be contradictory to have the roofs catch on fire first.
    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

    -Thomas Aquinas

    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

    -Hernando Cortez

    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

  10. #20
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=TimelessTheist;59483]Oh, and this:

    "The excavation of Charnel House A22, however, has laid that theory to rest. It is now evident that the roof, engulfed in flames, collapsed into the building and caused the interior burning:
    The extensive burn is clear evidence of the tomb's destruction by fire. Burning was concentrated along the interior wall in the center of both sectors, where the majority of posts and beams were uncovered. Along the south wall impressions of desiccated beams angled down toward the interior transverse wall, indicating that they had collapsed in the center across the interior wall (Rast and Schaub 1980: 37).
    The destruction of the charnel houses at Bab edh-Dhra was brought about by the roofs first being set on fire, then collapsing, causing the interiors of the buildings to burn. This is entirely consistent with the Biblical description of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, when "the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens" (Gn 19:24)."

    That pretty much puts the whole "natural gas" theory to rest. If the natural gas, set alight, came spewing out of the ground as the end result of an earthquake, it would be contradictory to have the roofs catch on fire first.
    No it would not. Natural gas eruptions during an earthquake event can occur during an earthquake, and note necessarily the end result. As cited the NATURAL EARTHQUAKES are an excepted explanation for the events by the evidence. It is also consistent with the natural cause. Earthquakes are not necessarily just one quake event. It is very possible that it was a series of quakes.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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