Sodom and Gomorrah Discovered

[tabibito]

In short, the presupposition is that the people reporting the events either did not know what they were talking about, or that they were lying.

As ever when this kind of topic comes up - I am reminded of an event in Japan in the 1970s that was attributed to the action of a kami. A number of people who consider the supernatural to have no possibility of existing declare that the event has a perfectly natural explanation. They can't advance any testable theory, nor any kind of theory to explain it: but they do assert without the slightest sign of embarrassment that it is absolutely impossible for it to be due to supernatural intervention.

[TimelessTheist]

Considering the literary history of Genesis as compiled ~800 to 600 BCE, nothing here remotely should be considered an accurate first or even second or third person testimony, and actually simply like many of the stories in Genesis, a handed down oral legend, and possibly from older cuneiform written legends.

Seriously? The JEPD theory again? No, actually, Genesis, and indeed, most of the Old Testament, is a lot older than that.

[tabibito]

That's what I thought, but I couldn't find anything definitive. Just a vague reference to the time of David.

[Mr. Anderson]

Eh, well, I hope you have a better explanation than that, as that explanation is clearly impossible.

I won't need a better explanation than that, because that is the explanation given in the source you presented in the OP. It wouldn't have been presented in the source in the manner given if it was impossible. Try something different cause this one don't hunt.

[tabibito]

Nothing requires that God has to use the great power of zap. It is well demonstrated that he prefers to tweak the natural order to bring about a result.

[shunyadragon]

Seriously? The JEPD theory again? No, actually, Genesis, and indeed, most of the Old Testament, is a lot older than that.

No, not necessarily the JEPD theory. Please give evidence that the OT is a lot older then that!!!!! Except for materials in the cuneiform tablets, there is nothing older then that. Again evidence please!

[shunyadragon]

Nothing requires that God has to use the great power of zap. It is well demonstrated that he prefers to tweak the natural order to bring about a result.

'Well demonstrated?!?!? Please explain? I do not believe any such thing has been demonstrated.

[TimelessTheist]

No, not necessarily the JEPD theory. Please give evidence that the OT is a lot older then that!!!!! Except for materials in the cuneiform tablets, there is nothing older then that. Again evidence please!

How about you go first. Provide evidence that caused you to date the OT to those dates.

[Truthseeker]

No, not necessarily the JEPD theory. Please give evidence that the OT is a lot older then that!!!!! Except for materials in the cuneiform tablets, there is nothing older then that. Again evidence please!

Could shunyadragon be more accurately called shun-Wikipedia? This Wikipedia article says that the Dispilio Tablet and Tartaria tablets are dated to the 6th millennium BC, which I understand are considerably older than the cuneiform tablets en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Writing#History

[shunyadragon]

Could shunyadragon be more accurately called shun-Wikipedia? This Wikipedia article says that the Dispilio Tablet . . .

What do these tablets have to do with the price of eggs in Denmark?

Dispilio tablet- A wooden tablet with some inscriptions found in Dispillo Greece. No known relationship to the OT.

. . . and Tartaria tablets are dated to the 6th millennium BC, which I understand are considerably older than the cuneiform tablets en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Writing#History

Tablets with a few symbols found Neolithic site in the village of Tărtăria Romania. Nothing to do with the OT.

What is your point?

[shunyadragon]

How about you go first. Provide evidence that caused you to date the OT to those dates.

The text closest to Hebrew language is proto Canaanite not known to exist before ~900 - 1000 BCE, establishing the link between earlier Canaanite cuneiform texts and phonetic language and later Hebrew language. No known texts OT texts exist in Hebrew before ~600 BCE. The pre-Babylonian cuneiform tablets contain the oldest scripture related to the Pentateuch and parts of the Psalms.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language

Archaic Biblical Hebrew from the 10th to the 6th century BCE, corresponding to the Monarchic Period until the Babylonian Exile and represented by certain texts in the Hebrew Bible (Tanach), notably the Song of Moses (Exodus 15) and the Song of Deborah (Judges 5). Also called Old Hebrew or Paleo-Hebrew. It was written in a form of the Canaanite script. (A script descended from this is still used by the Samaritans, see Samaritan

© Copyright Original Source

How about your evidence?????

I will present more including a portion of the Psalms in cuneiform, but so far you have presented none, zip, nada, nor anyone else . . . still waiting from threads going back to the old Tweb,

[shunyadragon]

Try this site out concerning Ugarit and the OT. It ain't Wikipedia.

Source: http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm

1. Introduction.

The ancient Canaanite city-state of Ugarit is of utmost importance for those who study the Old Testament. The literature of the city and the theology contained therein go a very long way in helping us to understand the meaning of various Biblical passages as well as aiding us in deciphering difficult Hebrew words. Ugarit was at its political, religious and economic height around the 12th century BCE and thus its period of greatness corresponds with the entry of Israel into Canaan.

Why should people interested in the Old Testament want to know about this city and its inhabitants? Simply because when we listen to their voices we hear echoes of the Old Testament itself. Several of the Psalms were simply adapted from Ugaritic sources; the story of the flood has a near mirror image in Ugaritic literature; and the language of the Bible is greatly illuminated by the language of Ugarit. For instance, look at M. Dahood’s brilliant commentary on the Psalms in the Anchor Bible series for the necessity of Ugaritic for accurate Biblical exegesis. (N.B., for a more thorough discussion of the language of Ugarit, the student is advised to take the course titled “Ugaritic Grammar” offered by this institution).

In short, when one has well in hand the literature and theology of Ugarit, one is well on the way to being able to comprehend some of the most important ideas contained in the Old Testament. For this reason it is worthwhile that we pursue this topic.

© Copyright Original Source

[TimelessTheist]

Try this site out concerning Ugarit and the OT. It ain't Wikipedia.

Source: http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm

1. Introduction.

The ancient Canaanite city-state of Ugarit is of utmost importance for those who study the Old Testament. The literature of the city and the theology contained therein go a very long way in helping us to understand the meaning of various Biblical passages as well as aiding us in deciphering difficult Hebrew words. Ugarit was at its political, religious and economic height around the 12th century BCE and thus its period of greatness corresponds with the entry of Israel into Canaan.

Why should people interested in the Old Testament want to know about this city and its inhabitants? Simply because when we listen to their voices we hear echoes of the Old Testament itself. Several of the Psalms were simply adapted from Ugaritic sources; the story of the flood has a near mirror image in Ugaritic literature; and the language of the Bible is greatly illuminated by the language of Ugarit. For instance, look at M. Dahood’s brilliant commentary on the Psalms in the Anchor Bible series for the necessity of Ugaritic for accurate Biblical exegesis. (N.B., for a more thorough discussion of the language of Ugarit, the student is advised to take the course titled “Ugaritic Grammar” offered by this institution).

In short, when one has well in hand the literature and theology of Ugarit, one is well on the way to being able to comprehend some of the most important ideas contained in the Old Testament. For this reason it is worthwhile that we pursue this topic.

© Copyright Original Source

the story of the flood has a near mirror image in Ugaritic literature

Well, that's already one non-sequiter. Buddy, every culture of the world has a flood story, so to say that they ripped it off from the Canaanites doesn't really work. What 'does' work, however, is saying that the flood stories all descending from a common source, which would be the case if the flood actually happened.

As for the Psalm argument, yeah, I heard that before, it's not really substantial. It basically states that certain Psalms use imagery of storms and thunder to demonstrate God's power, therefore it must have originally been meant for a Canaanite storm god. However, as you said, Cuniform tablets prove that the Psalms are much older than the invasion of Canaan, so if you want to prove that they modified the book of Psalms, the burden of proof is on you to show it.

[Truthseeker]

Before the invention of writing, lore or folklore must have existed orally. I very much doubt you, shuny, would even try to prove that less than 99% of the early tablets with writing on them contained stories that were never oral before being written on stone.

The story of Gilgamesh must have been oral before being written on stone. Why should the fact that the OT was not written out until centuries later necessarily implies that the OT contents are young relative to the Gilgamesh story? It is possible, is it not, that OT contents are far older than the Gilgamesh story? BTW, note how many varieties there are of the Gilgamesh story!

[tabibito]

'Well demonstrated?!?!? Please explain? I do not believe any such thing has been demonstrated.

This is a reasonable start point:
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.
Contrary to the popular belief that anything and everything would be attributed to an action of God, this declares otherwise: if God acts, that action will be prophesied. For example: If Ananias and Saphira had died without a prophecy being spoken, their deaths would properly be attributed to coincidence, not to an act of God.