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Thread: Definitions: Natural Vs. Supernatural.

  1. #21
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Except if we name a "rock" we have something objective to refer to. If someone points to a "chair" and says that is a "rock" - we say, well no. When we say supernatural what are we objectively referencing? We don't know. If we say this universal is natural - what does that men? In other words we really have no way to compare the natural with supernatural - to contrast the two.
    Kai Nielsen says that naturalism "is the view that anything that exists is ultimately composed of physical components." According to David Chalmers, the "physical" is defined as "causal dispositions."

    In their book, Naturalism, Stewart Goetz and Charles Taliaferro define Strict Naturalism as including:
    -no ultimate irreducible teleological explanation of any event in terms of a purpose
    -no libertarian free will
    -no irreducible experiences
    -no enduring self
    -God, if He exists, is explanatorily irrelevant to the world

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
    Kai Nielsen says that naturalism "is the view that anything that exists is ultimately composed of physical components." According to David Chalmers, the "physical" is defined as "causal dispositions."

    In their book, Naturalism, Stewart Goetz and Charles Taliaferro define Strict Naturalism as including:
    -no ultimate irreducible teleological explanation of any event in terms of a purpose
    -no libertarian free will
    -no irreducible experiences
    -no enduring self

    -God, if He exists, is explanatorily irrelevant to the world
    I like the bolded part, much more concise. Of course they have no idea if this applies to the universe or not.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I like the bolded part, much more concise. Of course they have no idea if this applies to the universe or not.
    No, but it gives you an idea of the "lay of the land," a way to begin to differentiate the two concepts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
    No, but it gives you an idea of the "lay of the land," a way to begin to differentiate the two concepts.
    But that is my whole point - you can't categorize this universe as natural then. It is possibly an unprovable assumption.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    My point is the definitions of supernatural/nature are completely arbitrary, there is no way to objectively distinguish between the two without begging the question.
    Again, your argument supporting a supernatural universe is not supported by evidence. ‘Supernatural’ is defined as “some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature”. Oxford. In short there is no good reason to assume that such a concept is true or that a methodology exists to show it exists. That you want it to be true does not make it true.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Again, your argument supporting a supernatural universe is not supported by evidence. ‘Supernatural’ is defined as “some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature”. Oxford. In short there is no good reason to assume that such a concept is true or that a methodology exists to show it exists. That you want it to be true does not make it true.
    ‘Supernatural’ is defined as “some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature”.

    Prove empirically that this definition is correct. With out begging the question.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    ‘Supernatural’ is defined as “some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature”.

    Prove empirically that this definition is correct. With out begging the question.
    So, what is it that you want us to prove, that there is no force beyond the laws of nature? We can't, that's why if it exist we would label it Supernatural.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    So, what is it that you want us to prove, that there is no force beyond the laws of nature? We can't, that's why if it exist we would label it Supernatural.
    If God did create and does sustain the universe in what sense is the universe natural?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    But that is my whole point - you can't categorize this universe as natural then. It is possibly an unprovable assumption.
    Well, sure. Nothing in metaphysics is 'provable.' But that was kind of assumed, wasn't it?

    Naturalists are saying there's no evidence for anything beyond what can be described by natural law, at least in principle.
    Last edited by Jim B.; 10-02-2019 at 02:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    If God did create and does sustain the universe in what sense is the universe natural?
    Supernatural just means beyond nature, i.e. beyond nature as we know it. So, if there is something beyond the world of our knowledge, beyond nature as we know it, then that is what we would call supernatural. There is no right or wrong about the terms, we made them up.

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