Definition of Evangelical

[mikewhitney]

Because I can, and do, cite Paul.

And, let me be clear - I don't think the creeds are "unnecessary" per se, but I see no need to repeat them in every service. That is what I was referring to as unnecessary.

I'm pondering things that may be good for Christians to know (and say). I don't find a need to have any creed spoken at each church gathering, but I do think the creeds could be spoken a few times a year -- or maybe more often.

[mikewhitney]

Which is why we have Bible studies, primers, devotionals, guides, new member classes....

oh. its about the marketing of bible products.

[Cow Poke]

oh. its about the marketing of bible products.

Why didn't I think of that?

[mikewhitney]

Why didn't I think of that?

the marketing stuff is reserved for the WOF preachers

[Cow Poke]

You are making it more difficult on me. I need a compact way for my writings when I need to talk about people who accept the key points of the creeds over against those who don't. Maybe I have to describe these people in double negatives -- those who don't deny the key points found in the Apostle's Creed.

Those who preach Christ, crucified, buried and risen again, offering salvation to all who believe.

[Cow Poke]

Those who preach Christ, crucified, buried and risen again, offering salvation to all who believe.

OK, just for grins... is there anything in the Apostle's Creed that you think somebody can NOT agree with, and still "be saved"?

Let's go with your list...

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

5. The third day he rose again from the dead:

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

10. The forgiveness of sins:

1l. The resurrection of the body:

12. And the life everlasting. Amen.

[KingsGambit]

OK, just for grins... is there anything in the Apostle's Creed that you think somebody can NOT agree with, and still "be saved"?

Let's go with your list...

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

5. The third day he rose again from the dead:

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

10. The forgiveness of sins:

1l. The resurrection of the body:

12. And the life everlasting. Amen.

Wayne Grudem disagrees with part of point 4; he argues the part about descending into hell is a misinterpretation of Scripture. I'm not willing to say he's damned.

Obviously many Orthodox and Catholic will take issue with how Protestants interpret point 9 too.

[mikewhitney]

Those who preach Christ, crucified, buried and risen again, offering salvation to all who believe.

Ah. The Apostle's Creed.

Wait. We started there.

Thanks for your feedback.

[Cow Poke]

Ah. The Apostle's Creed.

In part.

Wait. We started there.

Thanks for your feedback.

Actually, we started with the Bible, from whence came the creed.

[Cow Poke]

Wayne Grudem disagrees with part of point 4; he argues the part about descending into hell is a misinterpretation of Scripture. I'm not willing to say he's damned.

Obviously many Orthodox and Catholic will take issue with how Protestants interpret point 9 too.

I'm thinking more along the lines that a person can accept Christ as savior without knowing a number of those things, and, as a new believer, they need to be taught the rest. As for point 4, yeah, that's kinda iffy, and some Churches that recite the creed leave that "descended into hell" off.

Point 9 - what would be the disagreement there, given the small c in catholic?

[One Bad Pig]

Wayne Grudem disagrees with part of point 4; he argues the part about descending into hell is a misinterpretation of Scripture. I'm not willing to say he's damned.

Obviously many Orthodox and Catholic will take issue with how Protestants interpret point 9 too.

The problem Orthodox Christians have with the Apostle's Creed is that it is insufficiently narrow; an Arian, for example, would have no qualms about reciting it.

[KingsGambit]

I'm thinking more along the lines that a person can accept Christ as savior without knowing a number of those things, and, as a new believer, they need to be taught the rest. As for point 4, yeah, that's kinda iffy, and some Churches that recite the creed leave that "descended into hell" off.

Point 9 - what would be the disagreement there, given the small c in catholic?

The original meaning when it was written was more along the lines of the big c Catholic, i.e. an actual united church, so I could see it being an issue.

[Cow Poke]

the marketing stuff is reserved for the WOF preachers

Like the story about Jerry Falwell being captured by terrorists, and offered an opportunity to make a final statement before execution....

"bring the camera in a little closer, please, this is the last time I'll be able to make this special TV offer...."

[Cow Poke]

The original meaning when it was written was more along the lines of the big c Catholic, i.e. an actual united church, so I could see it being an issue.

Really? Didn't know that. I've always explained that the "catholic church" was "all of the believers through all of the ages".

[One Bad Pig]

I'm thinking more along the lines that a person can accept Christ as savior without knowing a number of those things, and, as a new believer, they need to be taught the rest. As for point 4, yeah, that's kinda iffy, and some Churches that recite the creed leave that "descended into hell" off.

Point 9 - what would be the disagreement there, given the small c in catholic?

The issue (Roman) Catholics and Orthodox have with the Protestant interpretation is the idea of the "invisible church" composed of outwardly diverse bodies yet somehow united in the Spirit. The concept was born out of the inability of Luther and Calvin (more or less) to come to agreement on a number of issues. To Orthodox and Catholic Christians, this waters down the idea of church unity to meaninglessness.