Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 4567 LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 67

Thread: Trump now openly asks China for help in the 2020 election

  1. #51
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    United States
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    17,897
    Amen (Given)
    5838
    Amen (Received)
    6394
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    It's a John Solomon piece...
    ...who names names and provides links to original sources and documents to back up his claims. It's solid work and not the typical "sources say" rubbish you get from disreputable rags like The New York Times.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  2. #52
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    United States
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    17,897
    Amen (Given)
    5838
    Amen (Received)
    6394
    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I did, actually. Starting with the link to a memo about three U.S. citizens working for a private strategies company doing work for Burisma "apologizing" for miss-information. Their lack of appropriateness in doing so, their questionable motivations for doing so, and the entire odd exchange is...well...odd. The second link couldn't be read (by me because it was in what I can only assume is the Ukrainian language - or maybe Russian?). The NYT article is primarily focused on the "bad optics" of Biden taking his stand at the time that his son was taking up his board position. I agree with the article - the optics were/are bad and pretty much led to this current situation. Eventually - someone was likely to jump on it (as has happened). The article makes no claims of corruption. The Kyiv Post article cites decisions from 2014 and 2015. The article is ambiguous at best, citing "all investigations fully closed" but not citing any further investigatory actions post 2015. The article is an interview with a U.S. Legal representative for Burisma. The next link is a sworn testament from the man accused of corruption - which I hope you will forgive me for taking with a bit of a grain of salt.

    And so it continues. The author is not engaging in "investigative journalism." If he had such a story, why not have it and all of its contents published as a front-page news article rather than an "opinion" piece? Probably because any editor worth his salt would have seen what I see: a stitched together fabric of innuendo and supposition to paint a picture the author wants to paint. Fodder for the opinion page - but not as an actual "new article."
    So what you're saying is that in typical carpe fashion, you read the article, looked for any flimsy excuse you could to dismiss the on-the-record sources and links to original documents, and told a little "fib" when you claimed that the author were merely speaking his "opinion" without backing it up with evidence.

    Okay then...
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  3. #53
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    12,710
    Amen (Given)
    26
    Amen (Received)
    1108
    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    Whoa, I've read enough Solomon pieces to know he was awful, but this is beyond anything I'd suspected.

    Umm, no, in any respectable publication, the editorial standards for fact do not change when the piece is published for op/ed.
    Actually - that's a good point and I stand corrected. I do think, however, that the Op/Ed page (pretty much by definition) allows for opinion in a way that front-page news typically does (or at least did) not. Solomon didn't make up any of the "facts" that he quotes. He just gathered them together and spun them into a highly slanted (and opinionated) conclusion that he can get away with by being on the opinion page. The casual reader might not pay close enough attention to notice.

    Of course, there are also those who so want this all to be true, they'll believe anything that confirms that desire.

    (Of course, they'll make the reverse claim that there are those who so do not want it to be true, they'll believe anything that confirms that desire. Except I really don't have a significant oar in the Democratic pool. If Biden were guilty, he should be out. Though I think Biden's right to hold a more moderate position on a lot of things, I'll take anyone that can show Trump the door).
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  4. #54
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    12,710
    Amen (Given)
    26
    Amen (Received)
    1108
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    The funny thing is, I can only find rumors and press reports alleging he was corrupt, but has it ever actually been proven? People keep saying, "It was well known," but last I checked, "well known" isn't a synonym for "true".
    It was one point of evidence, MM - not the entire argument. The specific incidents cited of his obstructing investigations and even returning ill-gotten gains, coupled with the positions taken by fairly reputable people on his job performance, is enough for me to accept that they were dealing with (at worst) corruption and/or (at best) failure to perform their job.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  5. #55
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    12,710
    Amen (Given)
    26
    Amen (Received)
    1108
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    So what you're saying is that in typical carpe fashion, you read the article, looked for any flimsy excuse you could to dismiss the on-the-record sources and links to original documents, and told a little "fib" when you claimed that the author were merely speaking his "opinion" without backing it up with evidence.

    Okay then...
    No - what I'm saying is Solomon assembled "facts" and then spun them into one possible interpretation that requires massive assumptions about motivations, relevance, and even timelines. It's a skewed hatchet piece not worth any serious reader's time. It has already had more of mine than it deserves. If you find it compelling - go for it. I'll leave you to it.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 10-06-2019 at 05:06 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  6. #56
    radical strawberry
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Humanist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,491
    Amen (Given)
    470
    Amen (Received)
    1037
    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Solomon didn't make up any of the "facts" that he quotes.
    That's not the standard, either. Facts used in an op/ed have to meet the same standard as facts used in a news report, which amounts to two reliable and independent sources. This just doesn't.

    It's been in the press for years that the British investigation was closed down when Shokin's office publicly absolved Zlochevsky. Upthread, I posted remarks from our ambassador:

    US Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt at the Odesa Financial Forum on September 24, 2015:

    For example, in the case of former Ecology Minister Mykola Zlochevsky, the U.K. authorities had seized 23 million dollars in illicit assets that belonged to the Ukrainian people.

    Officials at the PGO’s office were asked by the U.K to send documents supporting the seizure.

    Instead they sent letters to Zlochevsky’s attorneys attesting that there was no case against him. As a result the money was freed by the U.K. court and shortly thereafter the money was moved to Cyprus.

    v.

    Solomon:

    A British-based investigation of Burisma's owner was closed down in early 2015 on a technicality when a deadline for documents was not met.

  7. #57
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    United States
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    17,897
    Amen (Given)
    5838
    Amen (Received)
    6394
    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    No - what I'm saying is Solomon assembled "facts" and then spun them into one possible interpretation that requires massive assumptions about motivations, relevance, and even timelines. It's a skewed hatchet piece not worth any serious reader's time. It has already had more of mine than it deserves. If you find it compelling - go for it. I'll leave you to it.
    This reminds me of the time you claimed that Breitbart reported the straight facts only as a deceptive ruse to prevent critics from accusing them of not reporting the straight facts. If only all news sources were so devious.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  8. #58
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Sydney/Phuket
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    11,536
    Amen (Given)
    2510
    Amen (Received)
    1826
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    And over 40% think Biden helped his son with the investigation.
    Ah yes. That'd be Trump's base providing its usual source of comfort for him by believing all his lying crap. This amid his ongoing "below average" approval ratings.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  9. #59
    God, family, chicken! Bill the Cat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Central VA
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    15,810
    Amen (Given)
    8058
    Amen (Received)
    8389
    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Ah yes. That'd be Trump's base providing its usual source of comfort for him by believing all his lying crap. This amid his ongoing "below average" approval ratings.
    20% of the Dems surveyed in that particular survey also believe Biden did something illegal.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  10. #60
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    14,013
    Amen (Given)
    1758
    Amen (Received)
    1502
    Quote Originally Posted by demi-conservative View Post
    Let's make a deal: you publicly admit that you believe in conspiracies (Trump-Russia, Trump-Ukraine, Trump-Guiliani-Barr-Zelensky-etc or whatever) because you think there is credible supporting evidence for them, and I'll not use 'tinfoil hat' to describe those theories.
    Demi, what ever happened to your Russian accent?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •