Originally posted by robrecht
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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The Divine Non-Contradiction Principle and Why it Fails-Refuted
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Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-18-2014, 07:48 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo confusion on my part. My posts are specific and to the point, the theological Doctrine, Dogmas and Creeds which form the foundation of belief and define theism in 'traditional Christian churches. Your not responding to the posts. Your preference appears to address confusing vagueness of some underlying philosophical concepts.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo problem, Doctrines and Dogmas could not be used to define UU. UU is a consensus belief system, based more on the collective of independent thinkers that associate in a faith. This is the polls of belief work well defining the foundation of UUs, because it shows what and why they believe as UU evolved over its history.I'm not here anymore.
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostNo. Polls can indicate what the majority of adherents currently believe. They can NOT be used to determine what is the foundation of a belief system.
In terms of UU where the belief system is based on the consensus of believers without specific doctrines and dogmas as in traditional Christian theism this is the best way.
If you disagree, bell the cat, explain how you would do this?Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-18-2014, 08:22 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostSo that seems to be a 'no', ie, you do not want to speak of philosophical theism apart from creeds. Is that correct?
If you wish to discuss the philosophical why? again start a thread and I will gladly participate.Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-18-2014, 08:29 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe Doctrine and Dogma of the traditional Christian churches is basically set and unchangeable common set of required beliefs for salvation in the Apostles Creed
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostActually this is a contradiction. There are many UU polls, conducted by UUs that do exactly that, 'They indicate what the majority of the adherents of UU currently believe as described in the reference I gave.
In terms of UU where the belief system is based on the consensus of believers without specific doctrines and dogmas as in traditional Christian theism this is the best way.
If you disagree, bell the cat, explain how you would do this?
The predominance or acceptance of certain beliefs may change. This is different from those beliefs relying upon a consensus of believers. This is also different from the beliefs set into the foundation of the belief system. You continue to conflate these three things, and it is there that your error lies.I'm not here anymore.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIf you wish to discuss the philosophical? basis theism concepts, please start a thread on this topic. The topic I am addressing is what are the foundation beliefs that define traditional Christian theism and what the majority of Christians believe define Christianity as clearly stated in the reference I cited. These foundation concepts are clearly defined in the Creeds which every adult Christian who are church believers ''MUST' commit to sincerely as absolutely necessary when they become members of the church.
If you wish to discuss the philosophical why? again start a thread and I will gladly participate.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostThat is what some Christians believe. I was responding to a claim you made about theists. Is it so hard for you to distinguish between theism and Christianity?Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNot hard to differentiate at all, but I never referred to any other theists other then traditional Christian theists.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostSo what's new? theists use premises in their argument that atheists don't accept.Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostCorrect, I was just asked for 'some' of the assumptions theists make for their arguments for God that atheists do not make, and of course 'some' atheists make 'some' assumption that theists do not make.Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostMost Christians and Muslims assume our physical existence is temporal and finite. The Baha'i Faith cosmogony is the only theist view that believes in an infinite and eternal physical existence.Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostPretty much all cosmological arguments from the Christian and Islamic perspective assume that our everything in our physical existence had a beginning, therefore the necessity of a Source outside our physical existence, ie God(s).Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAssumptions in logical arguments, particularly in this instance cosmological arguments, are not the content of the belief. The assumptions of Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas are not inferences, but assumptions of logical arguments to support the existence of God.Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIn all my contacts and affiliation with UUs since the 1960's the independent individual expression and search for truth and knowledge is an underlying principle of UU, and expressed in the Humanists Manifesto. This highly individual view of 'truth and knowledge is in it self a contrad'iction with Theism where the search for truth and knowedge is in a 'higher Divine power.Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYes, many in fact many people also believe that some knowledge, revelation and beliefs are individually discovered or revealed, but what unites theists is the fundamental belief in some unifying revelation from God through one or more mediators reveals knowledge that humans must believe in to be somehow saved.Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostActually free thought and will has quite a range of beliefs in traditional theism. It is true that in almost all theistic religions limit the possible choices of valid free thought.Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostDegree and role of free thought is an important issue in humanism as differenciated from theism. Theism in one way or another discourages free thought.Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAgain, Traditional Judism is more more strongly rooted (anchored) culture and tradition, and not apophatic theology. In Judaism this not much of a concern to the average Jew.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostBefore I abandon this philosophical thread, I would still like to understand why this discussion has changed from a philosophical one to a specific religious discussion. This seems to have come about for a few potential and successive reasons: 1) your view that atheism is a belief, 2) your introduction of Baha'i Faith cosmogony, 3) your introduction of the foundational beliefs of Unitarian Universalist religion or movement, and finally, 4) your desire to further limit the previous discussion of theism to Christian theism. Is this really a rationale or straighforward course for a philosophical discussion to take or are there perhaps other reasons for your desire to move the discussion in this particular direction? I have my own hypothesis, but I would prefer to hear your own explanation first, if you please.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostUntrue. You did not begin to focus only on Christian thesists until after your view of theism brgan to be questioned:Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostIf you intend to talk only about Christians, why don't you consistently call them Christians? Are you trying to be ambiguous?Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThis thread has become muddled. A lot of the above came about by a series of questions. As far as UU goes I started a thread in apologetics. I will start a thread soon on Genesis 2 the Fall and Original Sin there too.Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe thread has become muddled. As far as UU and it's issues concerning God(s) and theism I prefer the thread in Apologetics.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI think this thread became muddled because of your desire to change a philosophical discussion of philosophical theism into your own critique of an overly limited view of Christian theism.
Simply passing the buck on baseless assertions is living in glass houses and throwing stones.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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