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George Will wrangles with God, the conservative sensibility ...

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  • #31
    Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
    I would stick the necessary evil until we have predominance of the theocracy. Scripture promoted the theocracy as the best alternative for the people of Israel.
    Best does not imply that the rest are necessarily evil, especially since that special theocracy was only for one nation.

    And, Dan 7 showed the demise of empires that were exalting themselves.
    As Starlight said, that some empires are bad doesn't mean all government is.

    Since governments have people in leadership, there is always an evil component.
    By that logic parenting is a necessary evil.

    I've made this parenthood point elsewhere against big-L Libertarianism:

    Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
    Originally posted by Darth Xena View Post
    No individual, group, or government may initiate force against any other individual, group, or government."
    Parenthood. So good it must be mandatory!!!
    Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

    Comment


    • #32
      I ask again: which part of the Founders' intent do you want to keep, which do you want to discard, and why?
      Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
        I ask again: which part of the Founders' intent do you want to keep, which do you want to discard, and why?
        the freedom for people in the US. what part of freedom don't you want?

        your question was anachronistic. It is rather shallow to look back centuries earlier and say "I would have set all the cattle free to roam wherever they want. I would take away land ownership from old people and give it to children." We always think we are smarter and that people of earlier years were evil -- because they didn't do it the way we would today.

        There also is the ability to amend the Constitution. So, if there is a really great change that most people approve of, it can be changed.

        To disregard all protections that we should have is to disregard any hope of restraining excessive government. There may be some big issues that need resolving, but don't give up future security for present useless gains.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post

          As Starlight said, that some empires are bad doesn't mean all government is.
          So you agree with Starlight that we don''t need the Prince of Peace?

          There may be some countries that are being too strongly harmed. Some have already tamed down due to the influence of the gospel message.
          That doesn't nullify the principle that the governments are a necessary evil.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
            the freedom for people in the US. what part of freedom don't you want?
            That's a mere slogan. Which freedoms and why? Freedom to vote, and for whom? Slavery?

            There also is the ability to amend the Constitution. So, if there is a really great change that most people approve of, it can be changed.
            So what would you change? Which amendments to the original intent do you approve of, and why?
            Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
              So you agree with Starlight that we don''t need the Prince of Peace?
              More red herrings. That we need Jesus doesn't mean governments are a necessary evil.

              That doesn't nullify the principle that the governments are a necessary evil.
              You haven't shown that governments are a necessary evil, only merely reciting the slogan and the usual nonsense of 'some governments are evil, so all are'.
              Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post

                To disregard all protections that we should have is to disregard any hope of restraining excessive government. There may be some big issues that need resolving, but don't give up future security for present useless gains.
                A brief look at today's world will show you that the government is more intrusive and excessive than King George's, even with all the 'protections'. Just stop reciting the slogans for a bit, and look and think.
                Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                  There will be a fire-tested cadre of conservatives still standing after the collapse, but their marginal existence inside the Republican party, as I've been saying for years, is over.
                  Failed, useless, weak, old. They and their conservatism will die off and no one will care.
                  Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                    A brief look at today's world will show you that the government is more intrusive and excessive than King George's, even with all the 'protections'. Just stop reciting the slogans for a bit, and look and think.
                    okay i'm done reading the slogans. Now we have to get back to work getting the government back inline with the Constitution.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                      A brief look at today's world will show you that the government is more intrusive and excessive than King George's, even with all the 'protections'. Just stop reciting the slogans for a bit, and look and think.
                      So what do you want instead of a government that is restricted against taking away our freedom?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                        So what do you want instead of a government that is restricted against taking away our freedom?
                        Laws take away freedom, the question should be what freedoms to take away.

                        Are you able to give a straight answer to straight questions? I ask yet again: which part of the Founders' intent do you want to keep, which do you want to discard, and why?
                        Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                          Laws take away freedom, the question should be what freedoms to take away.

                          Are you able to give a straight answer to straight questions? I ask yet again: which part of the Founders' intent do you want to keep, which do you want to discard, and why?
                          I'll await a straight informed question.

                          There is not much to answer about an anachronistic question lacking context.
                          Last edited by mikewhitney; 10-14-2019, 12:01 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            You bring up slavery ...

                            You should know first that the US Constitution didn't require slavery upon anyone. And you should be aware that a compromise allowed for independent colonies to join together as a nation which would see the abolishment of slavery. Nor did all people agree that slavery was a good thing -- but the key point to remember is that slavery wasn't required by the US Consitution

                            You probably know that slavery was part of almost all nations among all continents throughout history. People usually had worse forms of slavery on people of their own color than occurred in the States. The main point is that slavery has largely gone away across great portions of the world -- the idea of slavery has been rejected by people -- a diminishment of its acceptance over the last 200 years.

                            You also should be aware that it is anachronistic to claim that you are perfect and that the founding fathers were evil. You are not evaluating decisions in the realm of things possible at the founding of the country.

                            The same can be said of women suffrage. The first problem again is that you fail to evaluate what was just a norm of that age -- it was not some intent to evil intent against women. You are also assuming that women suffrage is super important. But the effect is to have houses divided ... or to have redundant votes ... in households. Which is more desirable? But where is your complaint? The founding fathers made the constitution amendable.

                            To give up the Constitution now would be to give a free-for-all for governments (which you already have maligned) for acting in worse manner. Are you ready for that?

                            Without establishing evil intent of the founding fathers, you have not made a sufficient case against the design of the US Constitution.

                            The main problem right now is that we have to bring Congress back in alignment with the Constitution. Somehow, we have allowed corruption to occur. But is this corruption less likely to happen in some other form of government? Why would it be less corrupt?

                            Also, there is some leeway (even if roughly following the US Constitution) to act outside of Congress' power. And thus certain evils of corporations might be constrained through momentary violation of the Constitution. I'm just saying that even in a Constitution-focused country, the people might accept some temporary veering from the Constitution.

                            Do you have specific evil intents demonstrated by the founding fathers?

                            Do you have some alternative form of government that would automatically fix all problems?

                            (I keep on wanting to start a thread about things I would like to see happen in our country -- cleanup of corruption, restoring of freedom)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              If we are going to fix anything in this nation, we have to understand what the good features are. Next, we have to understand what is causing the problems to having a decent world. Both of these points require that we can get accurate information about the world. Right now we get conflicting information which is then being interpreted as partisan truths. But, I'm not sure how to get everyone to discern truth -- this seems to be a difficult task these days.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Thanks for the substantial reply. I don't care about judging the intent of the founders, my point is that if you want to significantly change things, don't claim to merely seek the restoration their original intentions. Be frank about what you want to change and why.
                                Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                                Comment

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