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Thread: Ellen DeGeneres is Right

  1. #21
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Holding those who committed these atrocities accountable -- even socially -- would probably go a long way to preventing it in the future. Right now, torture and war are just things that powerful people can do and not risk getting uninvited to a Hamptons social.

    --Sam
    You have, in my opinion, such a backward view on this.

    Friendships can often change people. When I was assigned my legendary liberal atheist lesbian executive admin, she seemed to try hard to mock my Christianity and my faith, but I was determined to treat her professionally in spite of the fact that I was personally opposed to her lifestyle and her extreme left political leanings.

    We actually became friends. She became known as my "work wife", and after a couple years, she stopped mocking my faith and Christianity.

    When her sister died, she actually came into my office, closed the door, and asked me "What if you're right and I'm wrong?" She caught me off guard for a minute, because I had no idea what she was referencing. Then she said "About God, about heaven and hell - what if you're right and I'm wrong?"

    I would NEVER have had that opportunity with her had I maintained my prejudices and attitude. Our friendship changed both of us.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  2. Amen QuantaFille amen'd this post.
  3. #22
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And how many would have died in these years if Saddam was still in power? And how many were tortured to death?
    Fewer, almost certainly.

    And Hussein was clearly an atrocious tyrant who engaged in frequent torture. But that doesn't justify American torture, nor does that by itself justify American military intervention -- especially not for falsified reasons or without any real strategy for maintaining regional order in the aftermath.

    Bush is culpable for his decisions. And they don't become less because someone else is worse.

    -Sam
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"


  4. #23
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    You have, in my opinion, such a backward view on this.

    Friendships can often change people. When I was assigned my legendary liberal atheist lesbian executive admin, she seemed to try hard to mock my Christianity and my faith, but I was determined to treat her professionally in spite of the fact that I was personally opposed to her lifestyle and her extreme left political leanings.

    We actually became friends. She became known as my "work wife", and after a couple years, she stopped mocking my faith and Christianity.

    When her sister died, she actually came into my office, closed the door, and asked me "What if you're right and I'm wrong?" She caught me off guard for a minute, because I had no idea what she was referencing. Then she said "About God, about heaven and hell - what if you're right and I'm wrong?"

    I would NEVER have had that opportunity with her had I maintained my prejudices and attitude. Our friendship changed both of us.
    We're talking about different things. I'm talking about people who have done considerable harm to others. You're talking about people who disagree with you.

    I haven't argued against friendships involving the latter. I think it's fundamentally illegitimate, however, to equate harm with mere disagreement.

    --Sam
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"


  5. #24
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    We're talking about different things.
    Sure we are. I'm talking about giving kudos to a woman I would (in the flesh) look upon with disdain, but see her in a whole different light because of my friendship with somebody of her own sexual persuasion. It changed me.

    I'm talking about people who have done considerable harm to others. You're talking about people who disagree with you.
    And you absolutely maximize your assessment of the damage that Bush has done, making that, in your mind, apparently, what totally defines him. (I had a bunch of extra commas laying round)

    I haven't argued against friendships involving the latter. I think it's fundamentally illegitimate, however, to equate harm with mere disagreement.

    --Sam
    It just seems that, in this particular instance, you're being quite judgmental and legalistic while Ellen is being more "Christian".
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  6. #25
    tWebber
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    There's nothing Christian about cheap grace. DeGeneres is treating this as you are -- two people who disagree about some key issues but can still sit around having fun. That's not Christian forgiveness or grace or anything like it. It's merely erasing harm from the equation.

    Bush has done massive, intentional damage; whether one makes a maximal case or a conservative one, the Iraq War and the reintroduction of torture are not small harms. The decision to get anti-SSM initiatives on ballots to juice electoral turnout was not a small harm.

    And I'm saying that doing harm matters. And that it can and should affect our decisions to hang out with certain people who have neither apologized nor repented.

    --Sam
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"


  7. #26
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Fewer, almost certainly.

    And Hussein was clearly an atrocious tyrant who engaged in frequent torture. But that doesn't justify American torture, nor does that by itself justify American military intervention -- especially not for falsified reasons or without any real strategy for maintaining regional order in the aftermath.

    Bush is culpable for his decisions. And they don't become less because someone else is worse.

    -Sam
    First I don't think Bush approved of torturing people to death, they did approve of enhanced methods which were not generally life threatening. And Iraq is better off without Saddam, even with all their all their fits and starts. Not that I was originally in favor of the war...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  8. #27
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    There's nothing Christian about cheap grace. DeGeneres is treating this as you are -- two people who disagree about some key issues but can still sit around having fun. That's not Christian forgiveness or grace or anything like it. It's merely erasing harm from the equation.

    Bush has done massive, intentional damage; whether one makes a maximal case or a conservative one, the Iraq War and the reintroduction of torture are not small harms. The decision to get anti-SSM initiatives on ballots to juice electoral turnout was not a small harm.

    And I'm saying that doing harm matters. And that it can and should affect our decisions to hang out with certain people who have neither apologized nor repented.

    --Sam
    Do you even realize that your version of what Bush did requires you to assume the worst possible motives, regardless of his own beliefs? Even your version of his "decision to get anti-SSM initiatives on ballots to juice electoral turnout" assumes that he didn't do this because of a sincere belief that SSM is wrong, but he only did it for political purposes.

    Sam, do you have any idea how incredibly judgmental that is? Is it possible that Ellen believed Bush was acting from his own convictions, and for that, "forgiveness" is not required?
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  9. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  10. #28
    Thread Killer QuantaFille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    There's nothing Christian about cheap grace. DeGeneres is treating this as you are -- two people who disagree about some key issues but can still sit around having fun. That's not Christian forgiveness or grace or anything like it. It's merely erasing harm from the equation.

    Bush has done massive, intentional damage; whether one makes a maximal case or a conservative one, the Iraq War and the reintroduction of torture are not small harms. The decision to get anti-SSM initiatives on ballots to juice electoral turnout was not a small harm.

    And I'm saying that doing harm matters. And that it can and should affect our decisions to hang out with certain people who have neither apologized nor repented.

    --Sam
    You're still not getting it. If you are persistent and keep trying to influence others to do the right thing, if you give them time and be civil and all that, they may come around to your way of seeing things. If you preemptively give them up as a lost cause and refuse to speak with them, they just keep doing what they're doing and you've lost an opportunity. Hanging out with someone and being kind and civil does not equate to agreeing with or condoning their actions. And at the end of the day, even if they don't change then at least you know that you were a decent person towards them.
    Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.

  11. Amen Cow Poke, Cerebrum123, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  12. #29
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaFille View Post
    You're still not getting it. If you are persistent and keep trying to influence others to do the right thing, if you give them time and be civil and all that, they may come around to your way of seeing things. If you preemptively give them up as a lost cause and refuse to speak with them, they just keep doing what they're doing and you've lost an opportunity. Hanging out with someone and being kind and civil does not equate to agreeing with or condoning their actions. And at the end of the day, even if they don't change then at least you know that you were a decent person towards them.
    That is EGGZackly the lesson I learned in my 10 year association with my liberal atheist lesbian "work wife".

    Interestingly enough, I once made a derogatory comment about Ellen in her presence, and she asked me "besides being gay, what has she done to make you not like her?" I was pretty much speechless. She had a valid point.

    You know, we say "hate the sin and love the sinner", but I don't think we do that as much as we claim we do.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  13. Amen QuantaFille, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  14. #30
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Y...When I was assigned my legendary liberal atheist lesbian executive admin...
    I knew when I typed that that something was missing.... "When I was assigned my legendary liberal Jewish atheist lesbian executive admin..."
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

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