Originally posted by lilpixieofterror
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Originally posted by Sam View PostAs I wrote to MaxVel, this is work that has to be shown, not merely asserted. If someone is approaching an argument from the standpoint that bias exists and can infect one's reasoning, they do themselves a rather ridiculous disservice by turning around and imagining that of course they are the rational and objective arbiter of fact without first doing the work.
--SamThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostThere’s things I didn’t like that Obama did, such as his increased drone strikes, attack on Liberia, or lying about the ACA. There’s also things I think were blown up, such as family vacations and the price of Michelle’s cloths. There’s also things I find ridiculous that are not worth talking about (such as Obama being a secret Muslim). However, I have no idea what views my grandchildren or great grandchildren will take on his legacy. Can you admit that much, about Trump?
And an awful lot of American historians aren't exactly bullish on Trump.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI never claimed to be unbiased, Sam - I'm a conservative. Never said otherwise.
But if you're going to accuse others of advocating biased opinions, that's when you have to show your work. You have to demonstrate how your understanding is the objective one and how theirs disregards objectivity.
That's the work that has to be done before an accusation of bias can be even considered.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostWe don't know exactly how the consensus of the next two generations will view Trump or Obama, no. But that doesn't make it a black box question or completely subjective, as you argued earlier. In fact, if we want to get the best, most empirical idea of how Obama or Trump will be viewed as historical figures, we have an entire discipline of study devoted to ascertaining those kinds of questions. American historians who have spent their careers studying the events and effects surrounding presidents would be a great source for anyone who wants to start understanding just what the historical significance and consensus regarding Obama and Trump will be.
And an awful lot of American historians aren't exactly bullish on Trump.
--Sam"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Sam View PostMy point wasn't that you're biased
-- as I wrote earlier, everyone has it. And it's fine to believe that other people are biased because they don't hew to what you believe are objective opinions.
But if you're going to accuse others of advocating biased opinions, that's when you have to show your work. You have to demonstrate how your understanding is the objective one and how theirs disregards objectivity.
That's the work that has to be done before an accusation of bias can be even considered.
--SamThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAlready in evidence.
No, Sam, I don't have to "show my work". I can simply observe your own conduct and draw my own conclusions, and that can determine how I interact (or not) with you."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAlready in evidence.
No, Sam, I don't have to "show my work". I can simply observe your own conduct and draw my own conclusions, and that can determine how I interact (or not) with you.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostWe all fondly remember the forbearance shown here and by Conservatives everywhere when they steadfastly refused to pass judgement on the Obama presidency.
--SamSome may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Sam View PostThat's a decision within your right to make.
I would urge, however, that it be kept a private decision if you're not willing to put work behind such a public accusation.
--Sam
I simply have no desire to be bogged down in long back-and-forths with you.
I wish you well.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sam View PostAnd an awful lot of American historians aren't exactly bullish on Trump.Last edited by Mountain Man; 10-14-2019, 10:30 AM.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWell, thanks. Thanks a lot.
Sam, I think one of your flaws (just between me and you) is your propensity to take yourself way more seriously than others here take you.
I simply have no desire to be bogged down in long back-and-forths with you.
I wish you well.
I'm a fairly self-depreciating fellow, generally, but a major problem on this forum isn't an over-abundance of self-depreciating humor. It's more a major lack of serious, responsible engagement where folks hold themselves accountable to saying things -- especially things about others -- that they can defend as true and merited.
I say we tackle that before we worry about people taking themselves too seriously.
Be well, yourself -- almost said "Have a good weekend" but, no, that flew right past us.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostYou can’t accurately judge a president until he’s been out of office for a few decades because history isn’t a hard science like physics or math, but is more heavily influenced by subjective opinions and the emotions of those studying it.
However, there aren't any cases where presidents judged to be among the worst during their term in office were later judged to be among the best.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostYou say "an awful lot of American historians" and then link to an article featuring four historians who take little trouble to hide their obvious anti-Trump bias."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Roy View PostYou can't accurately judge a president until he's been out of office because you don't know everything he'll do until then, and you can't always judge him accurately for a few decades because (i) many documents won't be available before then and (ii) presidential-level decisions can have long-term consequences that won't necessarily be apparent in the short term.
However, there aren't any cases where presidents judged to be among the worst during their term in office were later judged to be among the best."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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