Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Elizabeth Warren's Pregnant Pause

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Charles View Post
    You did read the part where he said: "If you find that nasty, you're ascribing my opinion of certain policies to your own identity."? If so, then why do you claim it is an attack on the person?
    This is the kind of post that earns you the title "Nanny", Charles, where you butt into somebody else's conversation.

    I NEVER do that.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      This is the kind of post that earns you the title "Nanny", Charles, where you butt into somebody else's conversation.

      I NEVER do that.
      And where he earns the title hypocrite because he has never -- not once -- complained about the behavior of anyone he happens to agree with.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
        Right - can't win the argument, so attack the person and be as mean spirited and nasty as you can so no one notices you lost.

        Sad, Sam - truly sad. Perfectly proves my point, unfortunately - you used to be able to argue fairly now all you do is express opinion and then use cruelty when others don't agree. And when we tell you what we see, you deflect by bringing up extraneous points and tossing all the mud you can.

        Someday, when you look in a mirror, you'll find the abhorrent one is you - by your own choice.
        I'll tie this back into the bias/objectivity discussion:

        Nowhere in my post (or posts, for that matter) do you find an attack on your person. Nor am I using cruelty in my arguments. I am defining some positions and policies are wholly unacceptable to the Christian or civic mindset.

        It's you who are taking those principled positions -- about things that simply would not have been contested in 2008 or 2012 -- and making disapproval of them disapproval of you.

        My thought would be that one simply shouldn't identify themselves like that ... certainly not with ideas like "it's actually a legitimate debate whether US government should be separating kids from their parents and throwing them in foster care while the parents get deported". Defend the policy if you're able, sure, but also have some discretion about which policies, positions, and people you're going to defend. Otherwise, you'll find yourself in a lot of bad company, surrounded by disreputable ideas and folks.

        And, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to change my principles to pretend that something or someone disreputable is actually maybe OK. Whoever throws their lot in with those ideas and people ... well, that's their decision, and I'd rather they made a different choice.

        --Sam
        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Charles View Post
          You did read the part where he said: "If you find that nasty, you're ascribing my opinion of certain policies to your own identity."? If so, then why do you claim it is an attack on the person?
          Did you read the post? Yeppers - betcha did - and it was a nasty personal attack and you just like

          The difference being you're always taking potshots - he wasn't always nasty.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Quill Sword

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sam View Post
            ...blah, blah, blah - I'm right and it's your fault if you don't like being mistreated, 'cause I can't be wrong... Blah, blah, blah..
            Point was, people who disagree with you used to respect you.

            No one does now - and you already know why. All the verbiage is just defensive flak so you don't have to acknowledge the truth that you've changed in a bad way.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              Point was, people who disagree with you used to respect you.

              No one does now - and you already know why. All the verbiage is just defensive flak so you don't have to acknowledge the truth that you've changed in a bad way.

              Certainly, there's been some change.

              By whom and how far is the question. I feel fairly confident that I'm not excusing behaviors or defending policies today that I wouldn't have a few years ago. I would charitably propose the same can't be said of some others.

              --Sam
              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                This is the kind of post that earns you the title "Nanny", Charles, where you butt into somebody else's conversation.

                I NEVER do that.
                That is ridiculous. I too do not understand the position that says if I say X is wrong then somehow I have attacked personally anyone that does not believe X is wrong. It is an absurd position. Do not most of you maintain that you can love a homosexual person even though you believe homosexual acts are wrong? Well if that be the case then it applies here to these discussions as well. And if not, them you need to change your position as to whether or not that christian baker we've discussed so many times is discriminating or acting hatefully towards those he refuses to make cakes for. You can't legitimately say you are not attacking homosexuals personally when you declare homosexual acts wrong while at the same tijecaccusing any opponent here of attacking you personally when they say something Trump has done is morally wrong if you happen to disagree.

                Jim

                Jim
                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                Comment


                • At some point, I need to tie this all together with something that's been bouncing around in head for a few weeks; how we went from Andrew Sullivan's idea of "epistemic closure" in 2009-2010 to today and how epistemic closure (isolation from the shared reality of broader society) has evolved into something both similar and distinct. We still have epistemic closure but now even shared reality is broken: people who say they've read the Mueller report but still say the report details no obstruction, folks who complain about "closed door" hearings without pausing to realize they were totally fine with the same format only one or two years ago ... heck, people who say that Trump's been suffering phony Democratic congressional investigations for three years, only to be gently reminded that Republicans held the House and Senate until 2019.

                  Had a fellow on Facebook post "facts" about Trump vs. Obama yesterday. The figures were totally fabricated (by Turning Point USA, natch); when I pointed that out, the guy first attacked Real Clear Politics for being leftist-partisan because it's based in Chicago and then totally dropped the argument, saying that we can't trust polls because of how they pick the respondents. Not even a situation where the wrong "facts" are used but a situation where a "fact" was only valid inasmuch as it advanced the goal. Otherwise, it was fake. Then the fella's wife jumped in to argue that the term "genetic fallacy" is made up because genetics has to do with DNA. Quite the conversation.

                  We don't just see an isolation of facts anymore: we're seeing the complete abrogation of fact itself. You just can't point out matters of fact anymore and expect them to hold authoritative weight.

                  It's ... something to ponder a bit more.

                  --Sam
                  "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    That is ridiculous....
                    Calm yourself, big guy, and summon your sense of humor.

                    I really didn't think I needed to add sarcasm tags to... "I NEVER do that ".
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • A modest example of my point regarding relative movement. At what point am I or others supposed to treat the idea of explicit foreign interference in US politics as a legitimate topic of debate? After 30% of Republicans think it's OK or can we wait until the number hits 60%?

                      --Sam



                      Image 066.jpg
                      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Calm yourself, big guy, and summon your sense of humor.

                        I really didn't think I needed to add sarcasm tags to... "I NEVER do that ".

                        Whether or not you were serious about whether you do the same thing wasn't the point of my reply CP. I didn't even address that part of your post.

                        You ragged on Charles for butting in when he made a very legitimate point and wasn't butting in at all. I had the exact same sense of incredulity at teal's accusations sam was somehow 'attacking' her personally. Why didn't you support him if you believed the point he made was valid? And are you seriously suggesting we should know this particular instance of ragging on him was 'just sarcasm' when nearly every response you ever make to him is tearing him down one way or the other?

                        No way. So don't even try to pretend that post was in some way 'innocent fun' and it's somehow a deficiency on my part for not recognizing that.


                        Jim
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                          A modest example of my point regarding relative movement. At what point am I or others supposed to treat the idea of explicit foreign interference in US politics as a legitimate topic of debate? After 30% of Republicans think it's OK or can we wait until the number hits 60%?

                          --Sam



                          [ATTACH=CONFIG]40236[/ATTACH]
                          5 years ago Republicans would have declared anyone engaging in such was a traitor that was undermining our democracy.

                          Jim
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                            Certainly, there's been some change.

                            By whom and how far is the question. I feel fairly confident that I'm not excusing behaviors or defending policies today that I wouldn't have a few years ago. I would charitably propose the same can't be said of some others.

                            --Sam
                            Teal is quite wrong. There are plenty of people reading these pages that continue to have a great deal of respect for the objectivity and thoroughness of your posts.


                            Jim
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                              At some point, I need to tie this all together with something that's been bouncing around in head for a few weeks; how we went from Andrew Sullivan's idea of "epistemic closure" in 2009-2010 to today and how epistemic closure (isolation from the shared reality of broader society) has evolved into something both similar and distinct. We still have epistemic closure but now even shared reality is broken: people who say they've read the Mueller report but still say the report details no obstruction, folks who complain about "closed door" hearings without pausing to realize they were totally fine with the same format only one or two years ago ... heck, people who say that Trump's been suffering phony Democratic congressional investigations for three years, only to be gently reminded that Republicans held the House and Senate until 2019.

                              Had a fellow on Facebook post "facts" about Trump vs. Obama yesterday. The figures were totally fabricated (by Turning Point USA, natch); when I pointed that out, the guy first attacked Real Clear Politics for being leftist-partisan because it's based in Chicago and then totally dropped the argument, saying that we can't trust polls because of how they pick the respondents. Not even a situation where the wrong "facts" are used but a situation where a "fact" was only valid inasmuch as it advanced the goal. Otherwise, it was fake. Then the fella's wife jumped in to argue that the term "genetic fallacy" is made up because genetics has to do with DNA. Quite the conversation.

                              We don't just see an isolation of facts anymore: we're seeing the complete abrogation of fact itself. You just can't point out matters of fact anymore and expect them to hold authoritative weight.

                              It's ... something to ponder a bit more.

                              --Sam
                              If you wanted to make a passive aggressive swipe, you’re welcome to it, but I’ve been pretty consistent in condemning Republican programs like the unconstitutional patriot act, terrorist watch list, or secret courts. Unlike you, I’m not required to be a cheerleader for anything a Republican says or does.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                Teal is quite wrong. There are plenty of people reading these pages that continue to have a great deal of respect for the objectivity and thoroughness of your posts.


                                Jim
                                IE people who agree with Sam. Thanks for proving Teals, Max, MM, and my point.
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                103 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                301 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                109 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                196 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                357 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X