I dont have a Facebook page. I'm looking at what others, evangelical Christians, put on THEIR facebook pages in support of Trump. Pix, could you at least try to post something that is in some way consistent with what was said?
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My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostI dont have a Facebook page. I'm looking at what others, evangelical Christians, put on THEIR facebook pages in support of Trump. Pix, could you at least try to post something that is in some way consistent with what was said?"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostDe Nile is a river in Egypt - one you appear to want to live on or in. I live this MM. I look at the Facebook pages of friends from churches igecattended over the last 40 years.. I hear the conversations at Bible studies and after Church. And I read your posts and others. So sorry, but it is what it is. And your denials cant change the cold hard reality of what it is.
JimSome may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Sam View PostThe unfortunate point is that it doesn't require brilliance to understand statistics, polling and probability. Like I said, a middle school education would do for this one.
--Sam"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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De Nile. Seems to be a disease on this site lately.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThat is, perhaps, if you want to totally avoid the issue of abortion.
Her point was that Clinton proposed to curtail religious freedom. My point was that Trump promised to curtail it to a far, far greater extent. Just not for Christians*.
--Sam
*Those who he counts as supporters, at least"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostWow - I never realized you didn't complete middle school.
You'd never know it from my ability to understand that a 70% probability doesn't mean a 100% certainty!
Seriously, though, this is a real good "separate the wheat from the chaff" issue -- if you're gonna argue that polls are useless because they predicted a Clinton win and were "wrong", you're demonstrating an inability to even learn basic facts of real world and there's just not much to talk about. Folks who know better aren't just going to accept silly things because they're repeated.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostThe black/white thought process is thought process that things because I rank a person as 'among the worst' that I would not recognize there would be both good and bad.
The black/white thought process assumes that because I an appalled at what I find bad in Trump, that I do not see that there is a mix of good and bad in him as well.
The only black/white thought process happening here pix is in your mind, and it is aimed at me. What I see in Trump that is bad creates the response in me it does because:
1) it is dangerous - as we see in the fact he has been trying to get foreign countries involved in our elections, undermining our sovereignity, and as we see in his abandonment of our allies in the war on ISIS.
2) many good people, many of them Christians, refuse to take a position that acknowledges how bad the bad things about Trump are. So that the bad things Trump is doing are being excused before the world by the Evangelical Christian church, which paints the entire Evangelical church with a great big red 'H' for Hypocrites. Hypocrites that condemn homosexuality or other sexual sins, but who excuse gross immorality of nearly all kinds in their leader of choice.
I'll stop you right there. You're (for the thousandth time) begging the question. People here don't agree that Trump is all the things you say he is, so they are NOT 'excusing gross immorality' in him.
Originally posted by oxmixmuddHe lies, cheats, breaks laws, commits adultery, regularly undermines or cuts of those that have been loyal to him, has no respect for the constitution or the rule of law, is a bonafide Narcisist of the worst kind, care nothing about ripping children out of the arm of parents if it will let him keep a campaign promise, mocks the disabled, takes personal jabs at individual citizens from the office of the presidency, attacks the personal appearance of the wives of his opponenents, and on and on and on, and yet Evangelical Christians as a group excuse him and claim him as their own. The spend hours and hours on websites trying to pretend he really isn't doing these things and it's just the MSM making things up.
What is different about Trump over Obama, or Bush, or Clinton, or Nixon, or any other president is the extent to which the Church of Jesus Chist is willing to prostitute itself on his behalf.
THAT is why Trump is so bad in my eyes. Because he has made the Church his Harlot of Choice. And the Church is all for it.
Jim
Your justification for your attitude to Trump is the bad things reported about him.
When faced with a negative report about Trump that's not true, you nonetheless accept it, because you 'know' Trump is so bad.
How do you 'know' Trump is so bad? Because of all the bad things he's reported as doing and saying.
How do you know those negative reports are correct? Because Trump is so awful, they fit with his awful behaviour.
And then you accuse fellow Christians of "prostituting" themselves, when you yourself have shown that you have no regard for the truth, but only for whatever makes Trump look bad. That's really pathetic, man....>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by Sam View PostYou're attributing to me things I've never said.
I've never claimed to be without bias, for one. That would be rather silly, given a basic understanding of epistemology. After that, you're going off-kilter by comparing "bias" against "objectivity" without any real explanation of how you're using the terms.
For my part, bias is implicit in all human processing: the brain introduces bias as a basic function of processing. Cognitive bias obviously exists. An objective opinion, then, is not one that is formed without the inclusion of bias (since that's impossible) but one that is formed against bias, by forming a reasoned and empirical basis. In modern epistemological terms, we might call an objective opinion something that forms from justified, rational, and warranted beliefs -- beliefs are justified when they cohere or correspond to an internal or external set of beliefs or facts (I favor correspondence theory over coherence, fwiw) and are warranted when the underlying cognitive framework is functioning correctly. Beliefs are rational when they adhere to a solid framework of deductive or inductive logic.
That's a lot of work, of course, but it takes a lot of work to overcome bias. So the question isn't whether something I believe looks objective to you but whether I and you can demonstrate that our competing beliefs are 1) justified, 2) rational, and 3) warranted.
I spend a good deal of time trying to make that case and, I'm sorry, but you don't invalidate it by simply disagreeing. The work has to be shown, the case has to be made.
--Sam
At least you've recognised that bias is a problem for all of us.
You've already demonstrated to me that you are biased to the point of lacking needed objectivity when drawing conclusions about Trump. I'm satisfied that you are not fully capable of objectivity. I don't need to demonstrate that to your satisfaction to be justified in my conclusion. Even if I wanted to, how would that work? Convince someone who is biased that they are biased? If they were objective enough, they would have figured out that they most likely have some bias, and made allowances for that.
Things like looking for areas where their conclusions might be wrong, looking for (and accepting) data points that go against their views, trying to read the positions of those they disagree with with the most charity possible, and so on.
I think that you think you do all that, but I have seen that you don't, at least not as consistently as you seem to think you do. You have bought into a particular narrative, and that frames your perceptions of the data available. You're smart enough to see the weaknesses in the arguments of people who disagree with you, and that confirms your perception of your position as correct. Yet you don't see the weaknesses in the arguments that support your position, or if you do, you discount them.
Change of topic: Do people have the right to live in a community of their choosing?...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by Sam View PostThat's not an issue that fits into LPOT's post about Clinton v. Trump when it comes to religious liberty, letting Christians practice their faith, etc.
Her point was that Clinton proposed to curtail religious freedom. My point was that Trump promised to curtail it to a far, far greater extent. Just not for Christians*.
--Sam
*Those who he counts as supporters, at least"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostDe Nile. Seems to be a disease on this site lately.
Jim"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostAt least you've recognised that bias is a problem for all of us.
You've already demonstrated to me that you are biased to the point of lacking needed objectivity when drawing conclusions about Trump. I'm satisfied that you are not fully capable of objectivity. I don't need to demonstrate that to your satisfaction to be justified in my conclusion. Even if I wanted to, how would that work? Convince someone who is biased that they are biased? If they were objective enough, they would have figured out that they most likely have some bias, and made allowances for that.
Things like looking for areas where their conclusions might be wrong, looking for (and accepting) data points that go against their views, trying to read the positions of those they disagree with with the most charity possible, and so on.
I think that you think you do all that, but I have seen that you don't, at least not as consistently as you seem to think you do. You have bought into a particular narrative, and that frames your perceptions of the data available. You're smart enough to see the weaknesses in the arguments of people who disagree with you, and that confirms your perception of your position as correct. Yet you don't see the weaknesses in the arguments that support your position, or if you do, you discount them.
That ... and I see it as a standard of behavior to only go off on someone's integrity, objectivity, or even argument unless you're willing to demonstrate why with good argument, not merely accusation.
Originally posted by MaxVel View PostChange of topic: Do people have the right to live in a community of their choosing?
No one, I would say, has the right to exclude classes of people from their (secular) communities.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Proposing surveillance of Muslim communities and proposing to ban Muslim travel are, quite obviously, far greater violations of religious liberty than proposing to subject public accomodations to anti-discrimination law.
It's not even close.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostYou'd never know it from my ability to understand that a 70% probability doesn't mean a 100% certainty!
Seriously, though, this is a real good "separate the wheat from the chaff" issue -- if you're gonna argue that polls are useless because they predicted a Clinton win and were "wrong", you're demonstrating an inability to even learn basic facts of real world and there's just not much to talk about. Folks who know better aren't just going to accept silly things because they're repeated.
--Sam
I'd be more sympathetic - you're arguing on several fronts - except that you're picking the fights! If you're gonna fight everybody at least keep straight who said what.
You wanna play nasty little games, fine - but don't set yourself up as the punchline next time.
And quit declaring victory..."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostThe problem is you can't keep this stuff straight - that's closer to Lil's point than mine. And unlike you, I've actually studied and even done survey research and statistics.
I'd be more sympathetic - you're arguing on several fronts - except that you're picking the fights! If you're gonna fight everybody at least keep straight who said what.
You wanna play nasty little games, fine - but don't set yourself up as the punchline next time.
And quit declaring victory...
You were responding to a post I wrote describing LPOT's misconception as a middle-school-level mistake. So I was maintaining continuity to that thread.
If you want me to respond to your points, you're gonna have to specify that when you jump in with a response to a post concerning hers.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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