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Take This Impeachment And Shove It...

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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    One hopes you are right. This of course, as per the House hearings, will entail witnesses. And given that Trump proclaims his innocence he will of course allow the key witnesses he is currently blocking to testify. Otherwise there are those who will think he has something to hide.
    Which of course, we have by his very actions seen, he does have much to hide.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      Which of course, we have by his very actions seen, he does have much to hide.
      “Why are not letting us comb through your entire life, you must be hiding something!”

      Guilty till proven innocent, got to love it.
      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
        Originally posted by Mountain Man
        I'm sure the Senate will be every bit as impartial as the House.
        One hopes you are right. This of course, as per the House hearings, will entail witnesses. And given that Trump proclaims his innocence he will of course allow the key witnesses he is currently blocking to testify. Otherwise there are those who will think he has something to hide.
        Wow, did that really go over your head? I guess the missed the fact that the House inquiry was not at all impartial and assumed Trump's guilt before the first witness even took the stand.

        And again, the "What does he have to hide?" narrative doesn't get you anywhere because there is no reasonable expectation that an innocent person ought to consent to being investigated for a crime he didn't commit.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
          “Why are not letting us comb through your entire life, you must be hiding something!”

          Guilty till proven innocent, got to love it.
          Steny Hoyer (D-MD), the House Majority Leader[1], declared that "the House provided President Trump every opportunity to prove his innocence."

          "Prove his innocence."

          That's right, "Prove his innocence."

          Apparently the need of the prosecutor to prove guilt (NOT the accused to prove innocence) is yet another thing that the Democrats are willing to scrap in order to feed their TDS.








          1. #2 after Pelosi.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Old enough to remember a time when right-wingers were saying that if Clinton didn't have anything to hide, she'd go under oath before arch-prosecutor Trey Gowdy.

            Then she did, sitting for 11 hours of testimony, but folks around here nevertheless maintained her criminal exposure ... even guilt.

            Despite the production of millions of documents and testimony from senior administration officials in the Obama era, folks around here -- aping the half-screamed commentary across pseudo-conservative media -- stalwartly held that officials from Obama to Lois Lerner ...

            ... well, let's stop with there with Lerner, in fact. Let's remember that Lerner showed up when subpoenaed and refused to answer questions. Let's remember that, despite the early conclusions, it was found that the IRS "targeted" both conservative and liberal SuperPAC candidates in the aftermath of the extremely disruptive Citizens United ruling. And let's remember that not a bloody one of y'all complaining about how Trump's been assumed guilty here had one meager word of caution about ascribing guilt to Lerner who, I'll remind you again, did more by showing up and honoring her subpoena than Trump or any one of his senior-level lackeys.

            So please don't try to start that now.

            --Sam

            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Steny Hoyer (D-MD), the House Majority Leader[1], declared that "the House provided President Trump every opportunity to prove his innocence."

            "Prove his innocence."

            That's right, "Prove his innocence."

            Apparently the need of the prosecutor to prove guilt (NOT the accused to prove innocence) is yet another thing that the Democrats are willing to scrap in order to feed their TDS.


            [ATTACH=CONFIG]41670[/ATTACH]






            1. #2 after Pelosi.
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • And that "a fair trial is for the defendant not the prosecution" line continues to be one of the dumbest things imaginable.
              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                Old enough to remember a time when right-wingers were saying that if Clinton didn't have anything to hide, she'd go under oath before arch-prosecutor Trey Gowdy.

                Then she did, sitting for 11 hours of testimony, but folks around here nevertheless maintained her criminal exposure ... even guilt.

                Despite the production of millions of documents and testimony from senior administration officials in the Obama era, folks around here -- aping the half-screamed commentary across pseudo-conservative media -- stalwartly held that officials from Obama to Lois Lerner ...

                ... well, let's stop with there with Lerner, in fact. Let's remember that Lerner showed up when subpoenaed and refused to answer questions. Let's remember that, despite the early conclusions, it was found that the IRS "targeted" both conservative and liberal SuperPAC candidates in the aftermath of the extremely disruptive Citizens United ruling. And let's remember that not a bloody one of y'all complaining about how Trump's been assumed guilty here had one meager word of caution about ascribing guilt to Lerner who, I'll remind you again, did more by showing up and honoring her subpoena than Trump or any one of his senior-level lackeys.

                So please don't try to start that now.

                --Sam
                Remember when Eric Holder didn’t show up, when congress asked him to and all the democrats were in an uproar, demanding he be arrested and Obama be impeached, for obstruction of congress?



                Quick, change the topic to something else Sam!
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                  And that "a fair trial is for the defendant not the prosecution" line continues to be one of the dumbest things imaginable.
                  In our justice system, who has the burden of proof?
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • Eric Holder did show up and testify. You're thinking of document production -- which would be a fair comparison. So let's compare the thousands (or tens of thousands) of documents produced by the Obama administration for congressional investigations (not even impeachment investigations) for Fast & Furious, along with the testimony from senior officials, to the Trump administration's production of:

                    Docs: Zero
                    Witnesses: Zero

                    --Sam

                    Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                    Remember when Eric Holder didn’t show up, when congress asked him to and all the democrats were in an uproar, demanding he be arrested and Obama be impeached, for obstruction of congress?



                    Quick, change the topic to something else Sam!
                    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                      In our justice system, who has the burden of proof?
                      Wrong question.

                      In this part of the justice system (impeachment) the question is what is the standard of evidence. As mentioned some months ago, senators are more or less free to determine their own standard of evidence: some choose the beyond reasonable doubt standard while others choose the preponderance of evidence standard.

                      But even that's not the right question.

                      What we're talking about here is the collection of both direct and testimonial evidence that shows, clearly and convincingly, that Trump used official government resources to coerce a foreign government to investigate (or fabricate) information that would help his political campaign -- and specifically to harm a potential opposing presidential candidate. Trump himself has acknowledged to the press that investigating his rival was the intent and his Chief of Staff acknowledged the nature of the quid pro quo. To counter the evidence collected showing this, Trump has not taken any advantage of the opportunity to produced evidence that would serve to exonerate him: he has not allowed documents that would, supposedly, show aid was withheld for normal intra-agency reasons, nor has he allowed witnesses to testify who could, supposedly, show that he either didn't direct the holds or did so for acceptable reasons.

                      In other words, Trump has done nothing a legitimately innocent defendant would likely do when faced with false charges. And Congress should weigh that paucity of effort against the extant counterweight of evidence against him.

                      --Sam
                      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                        Old enough to remember a time when right-wingers...
                        I'm also old enough to remember things that didn't actually happen. Bummer, eh? Kinda like Clinton having those vivid memories of black churches burning...
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                          In our justice system, who has the burden of proof?

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                            Eric Holder did show up and testify. You're thinking of document production -- which would be a fair comparison. So let's compare the thousands (or tens of thousands) of documents produced by the Obama administration for congressional investigations (not even impeachment investigations) for Fast & Furious, along with the testimony from senior officials, to the Trump administration's production of:

                            Docs: Zero
                            Witnesses: Zero

                            --Sam
                            Questions Sam will likely ignore and change the topic for:

                            Why does the Trump administration need to hand over yet more documents and yet more witnesses when the Muller investigation already did that?
                            How many documents and witnesses were presented for the Muller investigation?
                            Could Congress had gone to the courts and used the courts to force the executive branch to hand over documents and witnesses?
                            Why was it so important to rush to impeachment because there was no time to follow due process, but now there’s time to sit on it and wait?

                            Of course, the question you dodged once:

                            Why is Eric Holder not in jail and why wasn’t Obama impeached, if ‘obstruction of congress’ is such a serious crime?
                            Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 12-26-2019, 02:12 PM.
                            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                              Wrong question.

                              In this part of the justice system (impeachment) the question is what is the standard of evidence. As mentioned some months ago, senators are more or less free to determine their own standard of evidence: some choose the beyond reasonable doubt standard while others choose the preponderance of evidence standard.

                              But even that's not the right question.

                              What we're talking about here is the collection of both direct and testimonial evidence that shows, clearly and convincingly, that Trump used official government resources to coerce a foreign government to investigate (or fabricate) information that would help his political campaign -- and specifically to harm a potential opposing presidential candidate. Trump himself has acknowledged to the press that investigating his rival was the intent and his Chief of Staff acknowledged the nature of the quid pro quo. To counter the evidence collected showing this, Trump has not taken any advantage of the opportunity to produced evidence that would serve to exonerate him: he has not allowed documents that would, supposedly, show aid was withheld for normal intra-agency reasons, nor has he allowed witnesses to testify who could, supposedly, show that he either didn't direct the holds or did so for acceptable reasons.

                              In other words, Trump has done nothing a legitimately innocent defendant would likely do when faced with false charges. And Congress should weigh that paucity of effort against the extant counterweight of evidence against him.

                              --Sam
                              Dodge #1 noted. What crime actually occurred for an impeachment to happen? Your imagination is quite entertaining, but what we actually have is a collection of hearsay and assumptions, that the supposed victim contradicts, that a star witness admitted that Trump said he wanted nothing in return, and the transcript of the phone call that contradicts the initial compliant. If we ignore that, Trump is guilty!!! We just need to keep digging till we figure out what he is guilty of doing!
                              Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 12-26-2019, 02:11 PM.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                I'm also old enough to remember things that didn't actually happen. Bummer, eh? Kinda like Clinton having those vivid memories of black churches burning...
                                I don't know who you're hoping to convince that numerous folks around here -- and the right-wing bloc in general -- weren't shouting about jailing Lois Lerner for years or treating her pleading of the Fifth as a tacit admission of guilt. I can't exactly wish you luck in that endeavor but, well, enjoy the weather?

                                --Sam
                                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                                Comment

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