Originally posted by Tassman
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Take This Impeachment And Shove It...
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWhich of course, we have by his very actions seen, he does have much to hide."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Tassmoron View PostOriginally posted by Mountain ManI'm sure the Senate will be every bit as impartial as the House.
And again, the "What does he have to hide?" narrative doesn't get you anywhere because there is no reasonable expectation that an innocent person ought to consent to being investigated for a crime he didn't commit.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Steny Hoyer (D-MD), the House Majority Leader[1], declared that "the House provided President Trump every opportunity to prove his innocence."
"Prove his innocence."
That's right, "Prove his innocence."
Apparently the need of the prosecutor to prove guilt (NOT the accused to prove innocence) is yet another thing that the Democrats are willing to scrap in order to feed their TDS.
1. #2 after Pelosi.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Old enough to remember a time when right-wingers were saying that if Clinton didn't have anything to hide, she'd go under oath before arch-prosecutor Trey Gowdy.
Then she did, sitting for 11 hours of testimony, but folks around here nevertheless maintained her criminal exposure ... even guilt.
Despite the production of millions of documents and testimony from senior administration officials in the Obama era, folks around here -- aping the half-screamed commentary across pseudo-conservative media -- stalwartly held that officials from Obama to Lois Lerner ...
... well, let's stop with there with Lerner, in fact. Let's remember that Lerner showed up when subpoenaed and refused to answer questions. Let's remember that, despite the early conclusions, it was found that the IRS "targeted" both conservative and liberal SuperPAC candidates in the aftermath of the extremely disruptive Citizens United ruling. And let's remember that not a bloody one of y'all complaining about how Trump's been assumed guilty here had one meager word of caution about ascribing guilt to Lerner who, I'll remind you again, did more by showing up and honoring her subpoena than Trump or any one of his senior-level lackeys.
So please don't try to start that now.
--Sam
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostSteny Hoyer (D-MD), the House Majority Leader[1], declared that "the House provided President Trump every opportunity to prove his innocence."
"Prove his innocence."
That's right, "Prove his innocence."
Apparently the need of the prosecutor to prove guilt (NOT the accused to prove innocence) is yet another thing that the Democrats are willing to scrap in order to feed their TDS.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]41670[/ATTACH]
1. #2 after Pelosi."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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And that "a fair trial is for the defendant not the prosecution" line continues to be one of the dumbest things imaginable."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostOld enough to remember a time when right-wingers were saying that if Clinton didn't have anything to hide, she'd go under oath before arch-prosecutor Trey Gowdy.
Then she did, sitting for 11 hours of testimony, but folks around here nevertheless maintained her criminal exposure ... even guilt.
Despite the production of millions of documents and testimony from senior administration officials in the Obama era, folks around here -- aping the half-screamed commentary across pseudo-conservative media -- stalwartly held that officials from Obama to Lois Lerner ...
... well, let's stop with there with Lerner, in fact. Let's remember that Lerner showed up when subpoenaed and refused to answer questions. Let's remember that, despite the early conclusions, it was found that the IRS "targeted" both conservative and liberal SuperPAC candidates in the aftermath of the extremely disruptive Citizens United ruling. And let's remember that not a bloody one of y'all complaining about how Trump's been assumed guilty here had one meager word of caution about ascribing guilt to Lerner who, I'll remind you again, did more by showing up and honoring her subpoena than Trump or any one of his senior-level lackeys.
So please don't try to start that now.
--Sam"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Sam View PostAnd that "a fair trial is for the defendant not the prosecution" line continues to be one of the dumbest things imaginable."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Eric Holder did show up and testify. You're thinking of document production -- which would be a fair comparison. So let's compare the thousands (or tens of thousands) of documents produced by the Obama administration for congressional investigations (not even impeachment investigations) for Fast & Furious, along with the testimony from senior officials, to the Trump administration's production of:
Docs: Zero
Witnesses: Zero
--Sam
"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostIn our justice system, who has the burden of proof?
In this part of the justice system (impeachment) the question is what is the standard of evidence. As mentioned some months ago, senators are more or less free to determine their own standard of evidence: some choose the beyond reasonable doubt standard while others choose the preponderance of evidence standard.
But even that's not the right question.
What we're talking about here is the collection of both direct and testimonial evidence that shows, clearly and convincingly, that Trump used official government resources to coerce a foreign government to investigate (or fabricate) information that would help his political campaign -- and specifically to harm a potential opposing presidential candidate. Trump himself has acknowledged to the press that investigating his rival was the intent and his Chief of Staff acknowledged the nature of the quid pro quo. To counter the evidence collected showing this, Trump has not taken any advantage of the opportunity to produced evidence that would serve to exonerate him: he has not allowed documents that would, supposedly, show aid was withheld for normal intra-agency reasons, nor has he allowed witnesses to testify who could, supposedly, show that he either didn't direct the holds or did so for acceptable reasons.
In other words, Trump has done nothing a legitimately innocent defendant would likely do when faced with false charges. And Congress should weigh that paucity of effort against the extant counterweight of evidence against him.
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostOld enough to remember a time when right-wingers...The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostIn our justice system, who has the burden of proof?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Sam View PostEric Holder did show up and testify. You're thinking of document production -- which would be a fair comparison. So let's compare the thousands (or tens of thousands) of documents produced by the Obama administration for congressional investigations (not even impeachment investigations) for Fast & Furious, along with the testimony from senior officials, to the Trump administration's production of:
Docs: Zero
Witnesses: Zero
--SamLast edited by lilpixieofterror; 12-26-2019, 02:12 PM."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Sam View PostWrong question.
In this part of the justice system (impeachment) the question is what is the standard of evidence. As mentioned some months ago, senators are more or less free to determine their own standard of evidence: some choose the beyond reasonable doubt standard while others choose the preponderance of evidence standard.
But even that's not the right question.
What we're talking about here is the collection of both direct and testimonial evidence that shows, clearly and convincingly, that Trump used official government resources to coerce a foreign government to investigate (or fabricate) information that would help his political campaign -- and specifically to harm a potential opposing presidential candidate. Trump himself has acknowledged to the press that investigating his rival was the intent and his Chief of Staff acknowledged the nature of the quid pro quo. To counter the evidence collected showing this, Trump has not taken any advantage of the opportunity to produced evidence that would serve to exonerate him: he has not allowed documents that would, supposedly, show aid was withheld for normal intra-agency reasons, nor has he allowed witnesses to testify who could, supposedly, show that he either didn't direct the holds or did so for acceptable reasons.
In other words, Trump has done nothing a legitimately innocent defendant would likely do when faced with false charges. And Congress should weigh that paucity of effort against the extant counterweight of evidence against him.
--SamLast edited by lilpixieofterror; 12-26-2019, 02:11 PM."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI'm also old enough to remember things that didn't actually happen. Bummer, eh? Kinda like Clinton having those vivid memories of black churches burning...
--Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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