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Take This Impeachment And Shove It...

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    You may have missed this earlier, Jim. I'll bold the pertinent part....
    The term "misdemeanor", of course, indicates it's a criminal court, and happens to be the same word used in the US Constitution as one of the offenses for which impeachment can be commenced.

    Do I Have to Appear in Court or Can My Attorney Appear for Me?

    If you are a perpetrator of a misdemeanor, your attorney is allowed to appear in court for you. He/she may defend your rights without your presence on your behalf at all stages of your case. But, if your charge is brought for a felony you must take part in all stages including arraignment, plea, preliminary hearing, parts of a trial and sentencing at the court with your attorney.


    So, as I said, even in a criminal case, the defendant may not be required to be present.
    The point is that neither Trump nor his Attorneys will show up in his defense, okay. Now, what happens in that case, CP. I'll tell you. In a civil case, if you don't show up, if you're not represented in court, you lose. In a criminal case, felony if you want to get technical, you can't fail to appear. In any case, you have to have representation, and that was the point. Trump is given that option, but he chooses not to appear, not to have his lawyers appear, not to call all those witnesses he claims would clear him. That should tell you something, but of course it doesn't.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      The point is that neither Trump nor his Attorneys will show up in his defense, okay. Now, what happens in that case, CP. I'll tell you. In a civil case, if you don't show up, if you're not represented in court, you lose.
      Actually, that's not always true -- the judge may find there's no merit to the case and not allow it to proceed.

      In a criminal case, felony if you want to get technical, you can't fail to appear.
      Yes, I made that quite clear in my actual cite.

      In any case, you have to have representation, and that was the point.
      No, not in ANY CASE - that's the point.

      Trump is given that option, but he chooses not to appear, not to have his lawyers appear, not to call all those witnesses he claims would clear him. That should tell you something, but of course it doesn't.
      Jim, you offering me legal advice is like me trying to give you advice on women's fashion. You made a dumb claim which I proved false, and you just can't seem to let it go.

      Impeachment is not the same as a civil or criminal trial, Jim. It's just not.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        Actually, that's not always true -- the judge may find there's no merit to the case and not allow it to proceed.



        Yes, I made that quite clear in my actual cite.



        No, not in ANY CASE - that's the point.



        Jim, you offering me legal advice is like me trying to give you advice on women's fashion. You made a dumb claim which I proved false, and you just can't seem to let it go.

        Impeachment is not the same as a civil or criminal trial, Jim. It's just not.
        Eh, you just don't get it, CP. No one said that impeachment was the same as a criminal trial, what we said is that Trump is given the opportunity to appear with his Attorneys, to testify, to have witnesses testify on his behalf, and he refuses to do so under the phoney excuse that the whole thing is a hoax. If it's a hoax, then he should appear, have his attorneys present, have his witnesses appear, and prove that it's all just a hoax. If this were a court, that's what he would have to do, because the charge is a criminal offense.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          Eh, you just don't get it, CP. No one said that impeachment was the same as a criminal trial, what we said is that Trump is given the opportunity to appear with his Attorneys, to testify, to have witnesses testify on his behalf, and he refuses to do so under the phoney excuse that the whole thing is a hoax. If it's a hoax, then he should appear, have his attorneys present, have his witnesses appear, and prove that it's all just a hoax. If this were a court, that's what he would have to do, because the charge is a criminal offense.
          Jim, you made a dumb statement which I proved false by using actual quotes and cites --- do yourself a favor, and stop digging. You seem to be in a particularly combative mood of late.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            It's a process. They start off "innocent", and have to be charged with an offense to end up in court. There, they are still assumed innocent until the prosecution meets the burden of proof.



            I can understand why somebody from a foreign country (beautiful though it may be) would think that.



            Actually, there are more elements -- like the right to face your accuser, a trial by a jury of your peers (in many cases), the right to an appeal....
            No, no, no. Your journey to the slammer starts when you are suspected of criminal behaviour. The presumption of innocence only applies when you are standing in the dock and means only that the prosecutor has the burden of proof and the justice system has to be fair to the accused. Your status then is “the accused” not “the innocent”.

            You see, a person on trial might be innocent, but he is not there because a prosecutor presumed he was. His presumption was the exact opposite.

            In Trump’s case, he has been a suspect most of his adult life, and quite possibly since birth.
            Last edited by firstfloor; 12-03-2019, 12:14 PM.
            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
            “not all there” - you know who you are

            Comment


            • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
              No, no, no. Your journey to the slammer starts when you are suspected of criminal behaviour.
              No, my friend, that's when your journey to the judging process happens, and may result in not passing go, not going to jail, and not paying a fine of $200. (get the reference? )

              The presumption of innocence only applies when you are standing in the dock and means only that the prosecutor has the burden of proof and the justice system has to be fair to the accused.
              And, unless the prosecution can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you are NOT innocent, you remain PRESUMED innocent, and may well skip the journey to the slammer altogether!

              At no point is the defense required to prove innocence, though, if they can, that would certainly be beneficial.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                No, my friend, that's when your journey to the judging process happens, and may result in not passing go, not going to jail, and not paying a fine of $200. (get the reference? )



                And, unless the prosecution can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you are NOT innocent, you remain PRESUMED innocent, and may well skip the journey to the slammer altogether!

                At no point is the defense required to prove innocence, though, if they can, that would certainly be beneficial.
                While you replied, I was editing.

                I have more to discuss but the movement of the bus makes it difficult to type. I’m thinking....
                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                “not all there” - you know who you are

                Comment


                • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  While you replied, I was editing.

                  I have more to discuss but the movement of the bus makes it difficult to type. I’m thinking....
                  I enjoy your calm rational - albeit extremely wrong-headed and loony leftist - discourse.

                  Meanwhile, singing it with me!!!! The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round...
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                    The point is that neither Trump nor his Attorneys will show up in his defense, okay. Now, what happens in that case, CP. I'll tell you. In a civil case, if you don't show up, if you're not represented in court, you lose. In a criminal case, felony if you want to get technical, you can't fail to appear. In any case, you have to have representation, and that was the point. Trump is given that option, but he chooses not to appear, not to have his lawyers appear, not to call all those witnesses he claims would clear him. That should tell you something, but of course it doesn't.
                    But I thought this wasn't a trial, it's a fact-finding exercise. Isn't that the excuse liberals are using for why the Democrats are free to ignore due process? So at this point, it doesn't matter if Trump or his representatives show up or not. It'll be a different matter if/when it gets to the Senate.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by dirtfloor View Post
                      No, no, no. Your journey to the slammer starts when you are suspected of criminal behaviour. The presumption of innocence only applies when you are standing in the dock and means only that the prosecutor has the burden of proof and the justice system has to be fair to the accused. Your status then is “the accused” not “the innocent”.
                      I point out again, every single person who has ever been found "not guilty" was, at one point, known as "the accused".

                      (In the US, they are also commonly referred to as "the defendant".)
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        I enjoy your calm rational - albeit extremely wrong-headed and loony leftist - discourse.

                        Meanwhile, singing it with me!!!! The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round...
                        A side topic: I was listening this morning to OA338;


                        Then, it's time for the main segment, which is a deep dive into the "administrative state" and specificially the "nondelegation doctrine" at issue in U.S. v. Gundy.
                        The relevant discussion starts at 10.00 mins. I think it would interest you and I would like to know your opinion.
                        https://openargs.com/oa338-nondelega...trative-state/
                        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                        “not all there” - you know who you are

                        Comment


                        • From what I understand the House conducts the investigation and if they find it has merit it goes to the Senate for the "trial"

                          At this point, Trump does not want to give the House democrats the air of legitimacy by participating in the "investigation"

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            I point out again, every single person who has ever been found "not guilty" was, at one point, known as "the accused".

                            (In the US, they are also commonly referred to as "the defendant".)
                            That much, I agree with.
                            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                            “not all there” - you know who you are

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Jim, you made a dumb statement which I proved false by using actual quotes and cites --- do yourself a favor, and stop digging. You seem to be in a particularly combative mood of late.
                              Wrong CP, you're a confused old man who thinks his sources proved me false because you see only what you want to see. The President isn't showing up to defend himself, in an actual court he would have no choice but to show up, in a real court Trump would probably already be in custody and he'd be escorted into court. As President, he gets special treatment. Being an ex "law man" you'd think you'd understand the difference.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Wrong CP...
                                Sure, Jim, whatever you say -- you're ALWAYS right! Feel better, now?
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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