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Thread: O’Rourke: Churches Should Lose Tax-exempt Status

  1. #551
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Because if they, i.e. a gods thoughts, are eternal, then there can be no process called "thinking". Thinking is a process that takes place in time and the resultant thoughts/reasons/actions are therefore temporal in nature as well. If you want to argue that a god thinks and reacts to temporal events then said gods nature would need be defined as temporal as well. Also, with respect to knowledge, if a god knows your name, your dogs name etc... and has known those things as well as all things eternally, then not only is he not thinking or reacting to temporal events, that eternal knowledge would simply mirror temporal events.
    You would be correct to say that God doesn't think. God's knowledge is timeless, and therefore true at all times. God is also completely impassive, and changeless and simple in substance. So in any moment of our time we relate to God in the same way, and by the same relation, analogolous to the rim of a circle that is always equidistant.

  2. #552
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    More or less, he believes that God is eternal but not timeless after He creates the universe, then he is temporal.

    https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writ...-and-creation/
    I respect Craig's defense of the Kalam cosmological argument, however I part way with him on his theology on God.

  3. #553
    tWebber Leonhard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    This is what you think nowadays.
    Wait, you actually think that's a gotcha? You do realize that even when you have an objective standard its possible for there to be both growth of understanding, and even realizations of errors. The very fact that this is possible is something that can only happen when you have such a standard.

  4. Amen Teallaura amen'd this post.
  5. #554
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    Wait, you actually think that's a gotcha? You do realize that even when you have an objective standard its possible for there to be both growth of understanding, and even realizations of errors.
    Not when an ultimate, unchanging “objective standard” doesn’t exist.

    The very fact that this is possible is something that can only happen when you have such a standard.
    No. It’s something that evolves socially over time.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  6. #555
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    So I should vote for a rabid abortion supporter who would have appointed rabid leftist judges?
    She was NOT a “rabid abortion supporter” at all. Her long-held view has been that abortion should be "safe, legal, and rare." She would NOT have appointed "rabid leftist judges" but judges that share her own moderate views...and those of the majority of the population.

    And we are not equally concerned, or more so, about the killing of millions of unborn humans?
    So, in your mind the "sin" of divorce and remarriage (which Jesus specifically designated as “adultery”) matters less than the relatively recent notion of abortion as murder. This has NOT been the Judeo/Christian position throughout most of its history.

    Actually no, they could not justify slavery based on kidnapping from Scripture.
    They nevertheless justified slavery from scripture for many centuries. Scripture has always been made to conform to the social values of the day, this is an example of it.

    I guess we all have our myths...
    All humans believe themselves to be significant, that's why we bother to stay alive. We ALL resist being harmed or killed.

    Of course I do (in certain cases) since Christ is not giving rules for the State. I support the State meting out justice (not me) and as we discussed, a life for a life is just.
    But you vote for capital punishment. How is that not you demanding an “eye for an eye”, a “life for a life” against the specific command of Jesus?

    You mean like your fantasy that you actually have significance?
    Most people believe that they and their loved ones have significance, this is why they protect and sustain them. OTOH your escapist fantasy that we are made for an imaginary eternal life results in your own personal salvation taking precedence.
    Last edited by Tassman; 11-20-2019 at 10:30 PM.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  7. #556
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    She was NOT a “rabid abortion supporter” at all. Her long-held view has been that abortion should be "safe, legal, and rare." She would NOT have appointed "rabid leftist judges" but judges that share her own moderate views...and those of the majority of the population.
    She abandoned the rare part a while back and considering that Ginsburg is the kinda judge she likes "moderate" is hardly an apt description.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  8. Amen Teallaura, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  9. #557
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    She was NOT a “rabid abortion supporter at all. Her long-held view has been that abortion should be "safe, legal, and rare." She would NOT have appointed "rabid leftist judges" but judges that share her own moderate views...and those of the majority of the population.
    To me she is...



    So, in your mind the "sin" of divorce and remarriage (which Jesus specifically designated as “adultery”) matters less than the relatively recent notion of abortion as murder. This has NOT been the Judeo/Christian position throughout most of its history.
    Both are sin, but killing an unborn human being is worse.


    They nevertheless justified slavery from scripture for many centuries. Scripture has always been made to conform to the social values of the day, this is an example of it.
    Nonsense, again tell me which sin I accept based social values of today. You can not broad brush all Christians.

    All humans believe themselves to be significant, that's why we bother to stay alive. We ALL resist being harmed or killed.
    Creatures, most as a matter of fact, survive without any fantasy about significance.


    But you vote for capital punishment. How is that not you demanding an “eye for an eye”, a “life for a life” against the specific command of Jesus?
    What don't you understand, this is not about what the State does or doesn't do. The State can't turn the other cheek, or carry luggage an extra mile.

    Romans 13: For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.


    Most people believe that they and their loved ones have significance, this is why they protect and sustain them. OTOH your escapist fantasy that we are made for an imaginary eternal life results in your own personal salvation taking precedence.
    That is just stupid Tass, I bet I do more for my fellow man than most atheists. So have Christians throughout history. Founding Universities, Hospitals, thousands of charities. And my little church:

    We feed on average two hundred poor families a month:

    35305969_10209784834612393_1688682816100892672_n.jpg

    We collect for and support the local homeless shelter:

    58382193_2716405365067375_5681362161960484864_n.jpg

    We help run a thrift store where the homeless get to shop free:

    66719375_501452643932457_3357224632175296512_o.jpg

    WHAT DO YOU DO TASS!

    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  10. #558
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Well no Jim we are speaking of an eternal being, how He thinks, how He interacts with the temporal, etc... We don't know these things.
    Right, and being that actual thinking is a temporal process, then the eternal entity of which you speak doesn't think at all. The reason that you don't know of anything of the nature of the entity which you speak of is because there is no evidence of the nature of the entity of which you speak of. But if you are going to claim eternality, timelessness, as an attribute of the thing, then you have to apply that attribute to all aspects of the things nature. Eternal, Timeless things, by their very definition, don't change, ergo they don't think, nor can they be said to re-act, or interact, to temporal changes/events.

  11. #559
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    You would be correct to say that God doesn't think. God's knowledge is timeless, and therefore true at all times. God is also completely impassive, and changeless and simple in substance. So in any moment of our time we relate to God in the same way, and by the same relation, analogolous to the rim of a circle that is always equidistant.
    Sounds like a do nothing god. Also, a timeless, unchanging god, for the same reason that you agree that such an entity doesn't think, for that same reason, it doesn't create either.

  12. #560
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    To me she is...
    Hillary is NOT a “rabid abortion supporter” any more than the 70% of the population which supports Roe v Wade are “rabid abortion supporters.”

    Both are sin, but killing an unborn human being is worse.
    Throughout most of Judeo/Christian history abortion has NOT been regarded as a “sin” at all. This is a recent phenomenon.

    Nonsense, again tell me which sin I accept based social values of today.
    You support adultery by voting for a blatantly adulterous president along with much of the Christian Right.

    Creatures, most as a matter of fact, survive without any fantasy about significance.
    Our sense of significance derives from the evolution of the necessary social behavior and survival instincts to live as cooperative, intelligent social animals.

    This as opposed to “significance” supposedly imparted by a fictional deity which, according to ancient mythology, created us for eternal glory. This is just (rather sad) wishful thinking.

    What don't you understand, this is not about what the State does or doesn't do. The State can't turn the other cheek, or carry luggage an extra mile.
    But the citizens of the state can, by refusing to support capital punishment at the ballot-box. It is against Jesus’ explicit injunction NOT to demand a “eye for an eye” and a “life for a life.”

    Romans 13: For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
    This is one of the passages once employed by Christians to justify slave ownership – and supports my contention that scripture means whatever people want it to mean. You use it to justify capital punishment, previous Christians used it to justify slavery.

    That is just stupid Tass, I bet I do more for my fellow man than most atheists.
    Not the atheists in secular countries such as Norway (and most of the free world), which maintain very active welfare programs.

    But this has nothing to do with our evolved natural instincts for bonding with and protecting our loved ones and supporting our communities.

    And my little church: We feed on average two hundred poor families a month:
    Interesting that in the largely Christian USA (as opposed to the rest of the Western World) you need to “feed 200 poor families a month”. But I guess it enables you to earn merit in heaven so it benefits you in the long-run.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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