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Thread: O’Rourke: Churches Should Lose Tax-exempt Status

  1. #401
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Yes, it makes god less powerful.
    So one is more powerful if he or she lies?


    Makes him less powerful nontheless. Not omnipotent. Lacking free will. Determined.


    Of course it does, you can't both have and not have free will.

    Actually that doesn't follow. If a science invented a pill that prevented you from ever lying again would that prevent you from being free in other areas or your life and personality?


    We are directed whether by free will or determination to act according to our collective best interests. To our good!
    Jim that is not what we were talking about! You said that good was not good if it was not freely chosen. That does not follow...


    So, what makes right, god or reason?
    It is not either or. God's moral nature coupled with His reason and His omniscience (knowing all long term consequences of every moral act). And remember Jim your ethical opinions are also grounded in your moral nature and reason. If you were not inclined to moral thinking by nature you wouldn't have moral opinions.


    Hypocrisy.
    Why is it hypocrisy? Be specific.


    Not an answer.
    Jim I'm not half a Commie like you.


    I think Tass says it clearly enough in the above post #398.
    And you make about as much sense as him, see my reply....
    Last edited by seer; 11-06-2019 at 09:16 AM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  2. #402
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    So one is more powerful if he or she lies?
    No, one has no power, if one has no choice.




    Actually that doesn't follow. If a science invented a pill that prevented you from ever lying again would that prevent you from being free in other areas or your life and personality?
    You can't both have and not have free will.


    Jim that is not what we were talking about! You said that good was not good if it was not freely chosen. That does not follow...
    No, I said god was not good if he didn't freely choose to be good. What a one does may be good, but he himself can't be defined as good unless he freely chooses good.



    It is not either or. God's moral nature coupled with His reason and His omniscience (knowing all long term consequences of every moral act). And remember Jim your ethical opinions are also grounded in your moral nature and reason. If you were not inclined to moral thinking by nature you wouldn't have moral opinions.
    Does a moral omniscient being reason?



    Why is it hypocrisy? Be specific.
    It's unjust.



    Jim I'm not half a Commie like you.
    Unfortunately, whatever half a commie is, you are worse for supporting and defending a treasonous enemy and underminer of democracy.



    And you make about as much sense as him, see my reply....
    Thank you for the compliment.
    Last edited by JimL; 11-06-2019 at 12:21 PM.

  3. #403
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    No, one has no power, if one has no choice.
    So in materialism you have no choice - so you have no power? Hitler had no power?

    You can't both have and not have free will.
    That is not an answer Jim. If there was a pill that prevented you from lying - how does that prevent you from being free in other areas? Be specific please. Would it prevent you from freely choosing pizza over steak for instance?

    No, I said god was not good if he didn't freely choose to be good. What a one does may be good, but he himself can't be defined as good unless he freely chooses good.
    So we can call no human good since we are all determined in materialism?


    Does a moral omniscient being reason?
    Yes, I assume that He uses His knowledge to come to conclusions, as well as His intuitive moral sense. Just as you use your knowledge and inherent moral sense.

    It's unjust.
    Why? According to your personal notion of justice? Remember Cain was ignorant of God's law against murder at that point. But you moved the goal posts - you went from hypocrisy to being unjust. Make up your mind James



    Unfortunately, whatever half a commie is, you are worse for supporting and defending a treasonous enemy and underminer of democracy.
    So you just had to bring it all back to Trump? Weak Jim, weak...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  4. #404
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And Christian's don't want health, prosperity, and safety for their families?
    They seem more concerned with personal salvation and eternal life than with the health, prosperity, and safety of their communities and loved ones.

    The problem with arguing with a moral relativist like you Tass is that you have no rational justification for your ethical positions.
    The problem with arguing morality with the likes of you, seer, is that your so-called morally eternal, unchanging divine laws are NOT eternal and unchanging. They have varied enormously over the course of Judeo/Christian history.

    There are no universal right or wrongs in your world
    Nor are there universal right or wrongs in your world, just subjective interpretations of the bible according to the social values of the day.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  5. #405
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post

    That is not an answer Jim. If there was a pill that prevented you from lying - how does that prevent you from being free in other areas? Be specific please. Would it prevent you from freely choosing pizza over steak for instance?
    If a deity is defined as omnipotent and omniscient but is limited in any area at all, such a the inability of choosing to lie, then that individual ceases to be an omnipotent and omniscient deity. Such an entity is reduced to being NEARLY an omniscient and omnipotent deity but not quite 'cutting the mustard'.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  6. Amen JimL amen'd this post.
  7. #406
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    They seem more concerned with personal salvation and eternal life than with the health, prosperity, and safety of their communities and loved ones.
    Well of course Tass, if a person believes there is a heaven to be won and a hell to be shunned that would be his dominate concern. But of course this is the only life for the atheist so he would want to grab all he can in this life.

    The problem with arguing morality with the likes of you, seer, is that your so-called morally eternal, unchanging divine laws are NOT eternal and unchanging. They have varied enormously over the course of Judeo/Christian history.
    No Tass, there have not varied. Biblical morality is quote consistent between the Testaments. I have actually listed these in the past specifically for you. And of course you just hand wave. But again, in your world there is no logical justification for any moral opinion - you might as well argue that vanilla ice cream is superior to chocolate

    Nor are there universal right or wrongs in your world, just subjective interpretations of the bible according to the social values of the day.
    BS - show me where the social mores of the day have changed my view of Scripture.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  8. #407
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    If a deity is defined as omnipotent and omniscient but is limited in any area at all, such a the inability of choosing to lie, then that individual ceases to be an omnipotent and omniscient deity. Such an entity is reduced to being NEARLY an omniscient and omnipotent deity but not quite 'cutting the mustard'.
    That is why I don't use the term omnipotent, but how does the fact that God can't lie make Him not all knowing?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  9. #408
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    That is why I don't use the term omnipotent, but how does the fact that God can't lie make Him not all knowing?
    And the reason He cannot lie is because He's powerful enough to impose that limitation on Himself for our good.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  10. #409
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    And the reason He cannot lie is because He's powerful enough to impose that limitation on Himself for our good.
    Well you can look at it that way! I just say that God is supremely powerful...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  11. #410
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Well you can look at it that way! I just say that God is supremely powerful...
    Yeah, I just laugh at the "logic" concerning....

    It's like the old ditty about "Can God create a rock so big He can't pick it up?" If yes, then God is not all-powerful, cause He can't pick up the rock -- If no, then God is not all-powerful, cause He can't create a rock that big.

    It's just amusing to watch mere mortals trying to figure God.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  12. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.

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