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Thread: O’Rourke: Churches Should Lose Tax-exempt Status

  1. #211
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassmoron View Post
    It is YOU not answering the question. Again: “On what basis do YOU determine that a “community's moral standards are necessarily correct and worthy of conformity”?
    You're deflecting. You're trying to turn my questions back on me without answering any of them yourself, most likely because you can't answer them without twisting yourself into contradictory knots.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  2. #212
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    You're deflecting. You're trying to turn my questions back on me without answering any of them yourself, most likely because you can't answer them without twisting yourself into contradictory knots.
    Not at all, I’ve already answered the question. Namely morals and ethics evolve and vary to a degree from culture to culture over time. Hence, we’ve moved on from the ‘us v them’ tribal values of primitive times to the recognition of the values of the ‘Universal Declaration of Human Rights’…at least in the West.

    What YOU need to do is explain how your alleged god-given objective morality can change from one era to another as it has for example re witch-killing, slave ownership or the subjugation of women and much else.
    Last edited by Tassman; 10-21-2019 at 10:56 PM.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  3. #213
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassmoron View Post
    Not at all, I’ve already answered the question. Namely morals and ethics evolve and vary to a degree from culture to culture over time. Hence, we’ve moved on from the ‘us v them’ tribal values of primitive times to the recognition of the values of the ‘Universal Declaration of Human Rights’…at least in the West.
    This conflicts with your earlier declaration that one is obligated to conform to the moral values of whatever "community" he happens to find himself in. In other words, you have no basis to say that yesterday's moral thinking is "primitive", or to imply that today's moral thinking is somehow more correct. In fact, your moral theory essentially demands that one have no firm convictions of any kind and readily accepts the status quo at any given moment, yet your arguments suggest otherwise. How do you reconcile this contradiction? Or do you not even try?

    You also haven't defined which "community" one is morally obligated to conform to. Is it one's immediate community? Local community? Regional? National? International? Global? You'll find differences in moral thinking at each level, so which should you conform to, and why?
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  4. Amen Teallaura amen'd this post.
  5. #214
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    This conflicts with your earlier declaration that one is obligated to conform to the moral values of whatever "community" he happens to find himself in. In other words, you have no basis to say that yesterday's moral thinking is "primitive", or to imply that today's moral thinking is somehow more correct. In fact, your moral theory essentially demands that one have no firm convictions of any kind and readily accepts the status quo at any given moment, yet your arguments suggest otherwise. How do you reconcile this contradiction? Or do you not even try?

    You also haven't defined which "community" one is morally obligated to conform to. Is it one's immediate community? Local community? Regional? National? International? Global? You'll find differences in moral thinking at each level, so which should you conform to, and why?
    Just can't give answer to the question yourself, can you, MM?

  6. #215
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Ah, so majority rules ... might makes right ... the Golden Rule: he who has the gold makes the rules ... etc.
    Yes, in a Democracy, the majority rules in so far as they elect the rule makers. But that isn't necessarily what makes a thing right or wrong, what makes a thing right or wrong is the effect it has on the society and the individual members thereof.

  7. #216
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLamebrain View Post
    Just can't give answer to the question yourself, can you, MM?
    You guys are still deflecting. I do not believe morality is defined by the "community", so there's nothing for me to answer. Even if everyone else in the world believed that it was morally right to kill one's neighbor and take his belongings, I would still have a basis to declare that it's morally wrong. You and Tass, on the other hand, have suggested that personal convictions are meaningless, and that you would be obligated to go along with the crowd.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  8. #217
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    You guys are still deflecting. I do not believe morality is defined by the "community", so there's nothing for me to answer.
    I'm not saying it's defined by the community. I'm saying it's decided on by the community. That's what democracy is all about, MM.


    Even if everyone else in the world believed that it was morally right to kill one's neighbor and take his belongings, I would still have a basis to declare that it's morally wrong.
    The question you refuse to answer is, upon what is your declaration based?


    You and Tass, on the other hand, have suggested that personal convictions are meaningless, and that you would be obligated to go along with the crowd.
    Nope. For instance, you don't personally need to believe in abortion just because the majority does and it is legal.

  9. #218
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLamebrain View Post
    ...what makes a thing right or wrong is the effect it has on the society and the individual members thereof.
    And what objective standard do you use to determine whether that effect is good or bad?
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  10. #219
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    And what objective standard do you use to determine whether that effect is good or bad?
    I'll answer once you do, since you have avoided doing so for so long.

  11. #220
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLamebrain View Post
    I'll answer once you do, since you have avoided doing so for so long.
    More deflection, and we both know it's because you can't give an answer that won't lead to you chasing your tail.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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