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Thread: O’Rourke: Churches Should Lose Tax-exempt Status

  1. #431
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Again Jim, I said God is supremely powerful. I do not use the term omnipotent.
    Okay, so now you've stripped god of his omnipotence.


    Second, because He can not lie does not mean that He is determined in all areas.
    And you know this, that god can't lie, how?

    You by nature can not flap your arms and fly, does not mean you are totally determined? Your argument is not logical.
    Apples and oranges, seer. We can't fly because we don't have the physical attributes to fly. God, or so you believe, has the attribute of communication. If it is impossible for him to use that attribute freely, to lie if he wanted to, then his truth telling would be determined. So, you would also argue that god can't do evil, that he can only do good, that he can only do what he ought to do, never what he ought not to do, and so the same would apply as with communication, god would basically be a determined entity, sort of like the universe. But the very idea of god doesn't make a whole lot of sense anyway. There is no evidence of such an entity, and even if there were, there's no evidence of his nature, or of the attributes you assign to him.

  2. #432
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    You mean takes priority over what you see as important.
    Yes. I think the health, prosperity, and safety of my community and loved ones is more important than my own selfish, personal interests. OTOH you clearly prioritize your own escapist beliefs of eternal life.

    Tell us Tass, how have you personally helped the poor and needy? I can't tell you how much my Church over the years have helped the poor with food and clothing.
    If you lived in a more secular country, like those that top the Human Development and Happiness Indices, you wouldn’t require such comprehensive programs to help the poor and underprivileged. There wouldn’t be the need.

    Tass when my Church helps the needy we do not ask if they are Christian, it isn't even a consideration.
    See above.

    But if atheism is true, the poor, like the rest of us, are insignificant creatures on an insignificant plant in an ultimately doomed universe - with no more inherent worth than a housefly. You, what we do, all our works, are meaningless in the end, slated for dust.
    Untrue. The secular, more atheistic countries are measurably more equitable and less violent that the largely Christian USA.

    Yes men can and do get things wrong, or misunderstand or use even the most sublime moral teachings for our own selfish ends - but in my world universal moral truths exist, in your world they don't. You could never formulate a logical argument for any moral evil being universally wrong. Everything is culturally relative.
    Your so-called morally eternal, unchanging moral laws are nothing of the sort. They are demonstrably based upon the changing the social mores of the day and justified by an appeal to scripture. The one-time subordination of women, slave ownership and discrimination against LGBT people are examples of how social attitudes have changed. Even things like divorce and adultery are no longer considered eliminating factors for high office, as the Christian Right’s support for Donald Trump demonstrates.

    Who says that slavery in wrong?
    Our current social mores condemn slave-ownership, just as they now condemn witch-killing and other practices once considered acceptable.

    It certainly isn't in your world. So what are you talking about?
    Nor was it in YOUR world for centuries because both “worlds” are grounded in the same social values. Morals are simply how humans behaved under certain circumstances at a certain time in history. Morals and ethics evolve and vary to a degree from culture to culture over time.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  3. #433
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Again Jim, I said God is supremely powerful. I do not use the term omnipotent.
    So, God is "powerful" but he does not have unlimited power. IOW he's nearly omnipotent but not quite.

    Second, because He can not lie does not mean that He is determined in all areas.
    How can a supposedly eternal entity like God be "determined" in ANY area? By definition 'determinism' implies that ALL moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes. So, what "preexisted" God?

    You by nature can not flap your arms and fly, does not mean you are totally determined? Your argument is not logical.
    None of us claim to be flying creatures, but God is claimed to be all powerful. Your argument is not logical.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  4. #434
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Okay, so now you've stripped god of his omnipotence.
    It doesn't matter Jim, God is who He is. The all knowing, supremely powerful Creator.



    And you know this, that god can't lie, how?
    Scripture.


    Apples and oranges, seer. We can't fly because we don't have the physical attributes to fly. God, or so you believe, has the attribute of communication. If it is impossible for him to use that attribute freely, to lie if he wanted to, then his truth telling would be determined. So, you would also argue that god can't do evil, that he can only do good, that he can only do what he ought to do, never what he ought not to do, and so the same would apply as with communication, god would basically be a determined entity, sort of like the universe. But the very idea of god doesn't make a whole lot of sense anyway. There is no evidence of such an entity, and even if there were, there's no evidence of his nature, or of the attributes you assign to him.
    Jim that was not the point! Which was, that because God is determined in some areas doesn't mean that he is determined in all areas. That because His moral nature is immutable does not mean everything He does is determined. Did He have to create? Or create what He did? Did He have to create humans or angles or giraffes? Or earth or this particular kind of universe? Even with an unchangeable moral nature there are still could be a thousand freely chosen decisions.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  5. #435
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Yes. I think the health, prosperity, and safety of my community and loved ones is more important than my own selfish, personal interests. OTOH you clearly prioritize your own escapist beliefs of eternal life.



    If you lived in a more secular country, like those that top the Human Development and Happiness Indices, you wouldn’t require such comprehensive programs to help the poor and underprivileged. There wouldn’t be the need.



    See above.



    Untrue. The secular, more atheistic countries are measurably more equitable and less violent that the largely Christian USA.



    Your so-called morally eternal, unchanging moral laws are nothing of the sort. They are demonstrably based upon the changing the social mores of the day and justified by an appeal to scripture. The one-time subordination of women, slave ownership and discrimination against LGBT people are examples of how social attitudes have changed. Even things like divorce and adultery are no longer considered eliminating factors for high office, as the Christian Right’s support for Donald Trump demonstrates.



    Our current social mores condemn slave-ownership, just as they now condemn witch-killing and other practices once considered acceptable.



    Nor was it in YOUR world for centuries because both “worlds” are grounded in the same social values. Morals are simply how humans behaved under certain circumstances at a certain time in history. Morals and ethics evolve and vary to a degree from culture to culture over time.

    Tass here is the bottom line, if atheism is true none of this matters. We are insignificant creatures on an insignificant plant in an ultimately doomed universe - with no more inherent worth than a housefly. You, what we do, all our works, are ultimately meaningless - slated for dust. It makes no difference in the end if we are a Stalin or a Mother Teresa. Death is our lot. But feel free to keep spinning your wheels with your moral musings and studies remembering that they inconsequential because we are inconsequential.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  6. Amen Cow Poke, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  7. #436
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Tass here is the bottom line, if atheism is true none of this matters.
    Atheism is grounded in reality, it’s NOT about what you wish to be true or would find comforting. And yes, our lives matter to us.

    We are insignificant creatures on an insignificant plant in an ultimately doomed universe - with no more inherent worth than a housefly. You, what we do, all our works, are ultimately meaningless - slated for dust.
    Nevertheless, we find great meaning in caring for our loved ones and contributing to the welfare of our community. If you find this to be insufficient and can only find “meaning” in superseded, escapist notions about eternal life then I feel sorry for you.

    It makes no difference in the end if we are a Stalin or a Mother Teresa.
    It does. It makes a significant difference to the community in which we live and to our own personal sense of self-fulfillment

    Death is our lot.
    Yes "death" is our lot, yours and mine.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  8. #437
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Tass here is the bottom line, if atheism is true none of this matters. We are insignificant creatures on an insignificant plant in an ultimately doomed universe - with no more inherent worth than a housefly. You, what we do, all our works, are ultimately meaningless - slated for dust. It makes no difference in the end if we are a Stalin or a Mother Teresa. Death is our lot. But feel free to keep spinning your wheels with your moral musings and studies remembering that they inconsequential because we are inconsequential.
    I understand that perspective. It starts with an understanding that eternity awaits us all. Our disagreement on your fundamental premise changes everything.

    From our perspective, your eternal perspective makes life itself meaningless. Consider that "if atheism is true" then this life is all we will ever have, making it of paramount importance. It is, in fact, all that can matter. Our lives make up 100 percent of our existence, rather than 70 or 80 years divided by eternity.

    It's a math thing.

  9. Amen JimL, Tassman amen'd this post.
  10. #438
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    I understand that perspective. It starts with an understanding that eternity awaits us all. Our disagreement on your fundamental premise changes everything.

    From our perspective, your eternal perspective makes life itself meaningless. Consider that "if atheism is true" then this life is all we will ever have, making it of paramount importance. It is, in fact, all that can matter. Our lives make up 100 percent of our existence, rather than 70 or 80 years divided by eternity.

    It's a math thing.
    I have always found it hard to believe that anyone really believes that life is only important if there is a life after this life. The line of reasoning provided for that point of view is most often based on the idea that nihilism is the conclusion if there is no afterlife. Nihilism is impossible and thus cannot be a conclusion. And I think they fail to see the perspective their view has on what this life is - even if there is an afterlife. They reduce our existence to something that could be completely meaningless with no importance at all, no need to care for anyone or anything and then, by the grace of God, that is somehow not the case... Must be a rather strange world that this God created bearing no significance or meaning in itself but only due to a perspective sprayed on reality afterwards.... And it must be strange to have to live in this world spending so much time on material, practical matters and discussing politics or whatever, when all of that seemning is only importance since what? Since we are going to live forever???
    "That is the little thing, the small thing, which Trump demands of his followers: To call hot cold. To call black white. To call wrong right." Michael Gerson

  11. #439
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Tass here is the bottom line, if atheism is true none of this matters. We are insignificant creatures on an insignificant plant in an ultimately doomed universe - with no more inherent worth than a housefly. You, what we do, all our works, are ultimately meaningless - slated for dust. It makes no difference in the end if we are a Stalin or a Mother Teresa. Death is our lot. But feel free to keep spinning your wheels with your moral musings and studies remembering that they inconsequential because we are inconsequential.
    In case you have not noticed there are quite many things in Tass' post that you have not answered. Perhaps you could not? Was an attack the strongest defence in this case?
    "That is the little thing, the small thing, which Trump demands of his followers: To call hot cold. To call black white. To call wrong right." Michael Gerson

  12. Amen Tassman amen'd this post.
  13. #440
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    From our perspective, your eternal perspective makes life itself meaningless. Consider that "if atheism is true" then this life is all we will ever have, making it of paramount importance. It is, in fact, all that can matter. Our lives make up 100 percent of our existence, rather than 70 or 80 years divided by eternity.

    It's a math thing.
    That is just silly, first, I'm sure that Maoists believed their work was of paramount importance. Meaning that what one considers important is arbitrary, often capricious, temporal and inconsequential - since again, because we are inconsequential. Second, if our actions do echo in eternity then our works, beliefs and persons are that much more consequential.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  14. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.

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