O’Rourke: Churches Should Lose Tax-exempt Status

[seer]

have changed significantly. NB the Christian Right's support of multiply divorced adulterer Donald Trump, a far cry from a generation ago when Edward VIII was forced off the throne over the issue of divorce.

Tass which Christians believe that adultery is a moral good? I certainly don't.

But slave-owning Christians DID justify slavery by scripture. For centuries.

And I used Scripture to show why they were wrong. But really - so what - in your world it is all relative anyway...

It is a fact of nature that we DO value our own lives and those of our loved ones regardless of the disregard of genocidal external forces.

So human significance is merely a matter of opinion. You like steak, I like lobster.

We do not live our lives according to the logical dictates of a philosophical theory, whether we are theist OR atheist. Rather we have evolved to survive as cooperative social animals.

I'm not speaking of how you live your lives but the logical outcome of atheism - existential nihilism.

Sure, when it comes to sheep. NOT people. Although you as a Christian are compelled to in all instances.

Why is a sheep for a sheep just and not a human life for a human life? The concept holds logically...

[seer]

seer, again it's either one or the other, of time, or not of time, and gods thought process is either eternal, i.e. timeless, in which case you can't call it a process at all, or it is temporal which concludes to an infinite regress.

This is my bottom line Jim, I don't think you or I or any one knows enough about time, eternity or God's though process to come to any firm conclusions.

[JimL]

This is my bottom line Jim, I don't think you or I or any one knows enough about time, eternity or God's though process to come to any firm conclusions.

Well, then you'll have to concede that your arguments against an infinite regress are moot since if gods thoughts, or acts for that matter, are temporal, they too would result in an infinite regress.

[Teallaura]

Well, then you'll have to concede that your arguments against an infinite regress are moot since if gods thoughts, or acts for that matter, are temporal, they too would result in an infinite regress.

Jim, 'we don't know' does not logically lead to the concession of a hypothetical, especially one that rests on the assumption of the unknown as a known.

[JimL]

Jim, 'we don't know' does not logically lead to the concession of a hypothetical, especially one that rests on the assumption of the unknown as a known.

We have two alternatives, Tea, temporal or eternal. That is why believers argue that god is eternal and the believed creation is temporal. The temporal process leads to an infinite regress, it's opposite, the eternal has no process, it doesn't change. If it does change, then it's not eternal, and would also result in an infinite regress.

[Teallaura]

We have two alternatives, Tea, temporal or eternal. That is why believers argue that god is eternal and the believed creation is temporal. The temporal process leads to an infinite regress, it's opposite, the eternal has no process, it doesn't change. If it does change, then it's not eternal, and would also result in an infinite regress.

That's a much too simplistic view of eternity, Jim. Remember Steady State was a theory predicated on the universe being eternal, but not unchanging.

[JimL]

That's a much too simplistic view of eternity, Jim. Remember Steady State was a theory predicated on the universe being eternal, but not unchanging.

But that doesn't change a thing, Tea. An eternal entity that changes would still lead to an infinite regress.

[Teallaura]

But that doesn't change a thing, Tea. An eternal entity that changes would still lead to an infinite regress.

I wasn't paying attention to most of your argument with Seer - an infinite regress on what?

[JimL]

I wasn't paying attention to most of your argument with Seer - an infinite regress on what?

On anything that changes whether as in physical actions or mental decisions.

[Teallaura]

On anything that changes whether as in physical actions or mental decisions.

I don't follow - how does that lead to infinite regression? Is this related to omniscience?

[JimL]

I don't follow - how does that lead to infinite regression? Is this related to omniscience?

The believers argument is that the universe had to be created, had to have a beginning, because otherwise, if it is eternal, its cause and effect nature would go on ad-infinitum, an infinite regression, which is an impossibility.

[Teallaura]

The believers argument is that the universe had to be created, had to have a beginning, because otherwise, if it is eternal, its cause and effect nature would go on ad-infinitum, an infinite regression, which is an impossibility.

Oh - no, I've never seen that variant. Looks more like it's related to the idea of a cyclic Big Bang.

[Tassman]

Tass which Christians believe that adultery is a moral good? I certainly don't.

And I used Scripture to show why they were wrong.

But really - so what - in your world it is all relative anyway...

It is all relative in your world too, witness the changing moral attitudes re slavery over the millennia.

So human significance is merely a matter of opinion. You like steak, I like lobster.

I'm not speaking of how you live your lives but the logical outcome of atheism - existential nihilism.

Why is a sheep for a sheep just and not a human life for a human life? The concept holds logically...

[seer]

I wasn't paying attention to most of your argument with Seer - an infinite regress on what?

An infinite regression of past physical events that led to this present universe.

[seer]

Oh - no, I've never seen that variant. Looks more like it's related to the idea of a cyclic Big Bang.

Yes it could be a cyclic series of big bangs and crunches or a infinite series of events within a multiverse that give rise to smaller bubble universes within the larger multiverse.