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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    Tass here is the bottom line, if atheism is true none of this matters.
    Atheism is grounded in reality, it’s NOT about what you wish to be true or would find comforting. And yes, our lives matter to us.

    We are insignificant creatures on an insignificant plant in an ultimately doomed universe - with no more inherent worth than a housefly. You, what we do, all our works, are ultimately meaningless - slated for dust.
    Nevertheless, we find great meaning in caring for our loved ones and contributing to the welfare of our community. If you find this to be insufficient and can only find “meaning” in superseded, escapist notions about eternal life then I feel sorry for you.

    It makes no difference in the end if we are a Stalin or a Mother Teresa.
    It does. It makes a significant difference to the community in which we live and to our own personal sense of self-fulfillment

    Death is our lot.
    Yes "death" is our lot, yours and mine.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Tass here is the bottom line, if atheism is true none of this matters. We are insignificant creatures on an insignificant plant in an ultimately doomed universe - with no more inherent worth than a housefly. You, what we do, all our works, are ultimately meaningless - slated for dust. It makes no difference in the end if we are a Stalin or a Mother Teresa. Death is our lot. But feel free to keep spinning your wheels with your moral musings and studies remembering that they inconsequential because we are inconsequential.
      I understand that perspective. It starts with an understanding that eternity awaits us all. Our disagreement on your fundamental premise changes everything.

      From our perspective, your eternal perspective makes life itself meaningless. Consider that "if atheism is true" then this life is all we will ever have, making it of paramount importance. It is, in fact, all that can matter. Our lives make up 100 percent of our existence, rather than 70 or 80 years divided by eternity.

      It's a math thing.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
        I understand that perspective. It starts with an understanding that eternity awaits us all. Our disagreement on your fundamental premise changes everything.

        From our perspective, your eternal perspective makes life itself meaningless. Consider that "if atheism is true" then this life is all we will ever have, making it of paramount importance. It is, in fact, all that can matter. Our lives make up 100 percent of our existence, rather than 70 or 80 years divided by eternity.

        It's a math thing.
        I have always found it hard to believe that anyone really believes that life is only important if there is a life after this life. The line of reasoning provided for that point of view is most often based on the idea that nihilism is the conclusion if there is no afterlife. Nihilism is impossible and thus cannot be a conclusion. And I think they fail to see the perspective their view has on what this life is - even if there is an afterlife. They reduce our existence to something that could be completely meaningless with no importance at all, no need to care for anyone or anything and then, by the grace of God, that is somehow not the case... Must be a rather strange world that this God created bearing no significance or meaning in itself but only due to a perspective sprayed on reality afterwards.... And it must be strange to have to live in this world spending so much time on material, practical matters and discussing politics or whatever, when all of that seemning is only importance since what? Since we are going to live forever???
        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          Tass here is the bottom line, if atheism is true none of this matters. We are insignificant creatures on an insignificant plant in an ultimately doomed universe - with no more inherent worth than a housefly. You, what we do, all our works, are ultimately meaningless - slated for dust. It makes no difference in the end if we are a Stalin or a Mother Teresa. Death is our lot. But feel free to keep spinning your wheels with your moral musings and studies remembering that they inconsequential because we are inconsequential.
          In case you have not noticed there are quite many things in Tass' post that you have not answered. Perhaps you could not? Was an attack the strongest defence in this case?
          "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
            From our perspective, your eternal perspective makes life itself meaningless. Consider that "if atheism is true" then this life is all we will ever have, making it of paramount importance. It is, in fact, all that can matter. Our lives make up 100 percent of our existence, rather than 70 or 80 years divided by eternity.

            It's a math thing.
            That is just silly, first, I'm sure that Maoists believed their work was of paramount importance. Meaning that what one considers important is arbitrary, often capricious, temporal and inconsequential - since again, because we are inconsequential. Second, if our actions do echo in eternity then our works, beliefs and persons are that much more consequential.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Charles View Post
              In case you have not noticed there are quite many things in Tass' post that you have not answered. Perhaps you could not? Was an attack the strongest defence in this case?
              Charles I have answered Tass's questions a dozen times over. We have been doing this same dance for years.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                what one considers important is arbitrary, often capricious, temporal and inconsequential
                Not arbitrary. What one considers important is the product of the evolution of the necessary social behavior of humanity to survive as intelligent social animals. Namely, our cooperation and participation within the family unit and community at large.

                - since again, because we are inconsequential.
                Our loving families and supportive communities are not inconsequential. They are our purpose for living.

                Second, if our actions do echo in eternity then our works, beliefs and persons are that much more consequential.
                If our life is viewed merely as a dress-rehearsal for the ‘real thing’ beyond death then this life is of little consequence except as an exercise to keep God on side until the BIG Day when we die.

                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Charles I have answered Tass's questions a dozen times over. We have been doing this same dance for years.
                You've NEVER answered them.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  That is just silly, first, I'm sure that Maoists believed their work was of paramount importance. Meaning that what one considers important is arbitrary, often capricious, temporal and inconsequential - since again, because we are inconsequential. Second, if our actions do echo in eternity then our works, beliefs and persons are that much more consequential.
                  I have a feeling that quite many terrorist would agree with you on this. They do what they do because they believe their actions echo in eternity. You see? What you believe and the consequences it could have remains completely arbitrary and inconsequential if you do not find absolute standards.
                  "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    Not arbitrary. What one considers important is the product of the evolution of the necessary social behavior of humanity to survive as intelligent social animals. Namely, our cooperation and participation within the family unit and community at large.
                    Of course it is arbitrary. Do you agree with with the murderous Communist?


                    Our loving families and supportive communities are not inconsequential. They are our purpose for living.
                    How is that consequential if we are inconsequential?

                    And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
                    The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
                    Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
                    That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
                    And then is heard no more. It is a tale
                    Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
                    Signifying nothing
                    .

                    You've NEVER answered them.
                    That is false Tass, tell me one thing have have not answered over the years! I can't help it if your long term memory is lacking. And how many times have you ignored my questions like in this thread? I asked you a number of times when debating the death penalty about the example of the sheep: If a man steals and eats another man's sheep and is required to give that man one of his own sheep, a sheep for a sheep, is that just? Yes or no?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                      I have a feeling that quite many terrorist would agree with you on this. They do what they do because they believe their actions echo in eternity. You see? What you believe and the consequences it could have remains completely arbitrary and inconsequential if you do not find absolute standards.
                      And all you offer is death, no universal moral truths, no hope...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        And all you offer is death, no universal moral truths, no hope...
                        Quite a claim to make, but I note that you could not adress the point. Perhaps that is why you need to make such claims?
                        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          It doesn't matter Jim, God is who He is. The all knowing, supremely powerful Creator.
                          Just not powerful enough to lie if he so chooses.



                          Scripture.
                          Any specifics? I believe someone has already pointed out that the biblical god did lie.



                          Jim that was not the point! Which was, that because God is determined in some areas doesn't mean that he is determined in all areas. That because His moral nature is immutable does not mean everything He does is determined. Did He have to create? Or create what He did? Did He have to create humans or angles or giraffes? Or earth or this particular kind of universe? Even with an unchangeable moral nature there are still could be a thousand freely chosen decisions.
                          Did god have a first thought seer, or do his thoughts amount to an infinite regress? Was his thought to create an eternal thought, or did he come by that idea in time?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                            Quite a claim to make, but I note that you could not adress the point. Perhaps that is why you need to make such claims?
                            That is the bottom line Charles, death and hopelessness - besides I have no idea what this means: What you believe and the consequences it could have remains completely arbitrary and inconsequential if you do not find absolute standards.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Just not powerful enough to lie if he so chooses.
                              I guess to you Jim lying is a moral good....




                              Any specifics? I believe someone has already pointed out that the biblical god did lie.
                              Where did God lie?

                              Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.

                              Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us.



                              Did god have a first thought seer, or do his thoughts amount to an infinite regress? Was his thought to create an eternal thought, or did he come by that idea in time?
                              First Jim, and infinite regression of thoughts is not like an infinite regression of physical acts. Second, I don't know how God thinks in that aspect. Third, that was not what we were discussing, you moved the goal posts again: that because God moral character is unchangeable it does not follow that all His decisions or acts are determined.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                That is the bottom line Charles, death and hopelessness - besides I have no idea what this means: What you believe and the consequences it could have remains completely arbitrary and inconsequential if you do not find absolute standards.
                                So, once again you failed to adress the point. And now you admit that you do not understand important parts of the statement that you claim leads to death and hopelessness. I wonder if you can see the problem of concluding based on statements you do not understand.

                                Anyway, let us see you adress the point that you have now tried to avoid a couple of times.
                                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                                Comment

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