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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    I guess to you Jim lying is a moral good....
    No, the fact that god can't lie just proves his non-omnipotence. He can hardly be defined as moral either if he has no choice in the matter.




    Where did God lie?

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.

    Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us.
    Someone mentioned it previously, not worth going into though.



    First Jim, and infinite regression of thoughts is not like an infinite regression of physical acts.
    How so? The two are the same as far as human thinking goes, so how is it different with god?


    Second, I don't know how God thinks in that aspect.
    Well you seem to know everything else about gods nature, why don't you know that?

    Third, that was not what we were discussing, you moved the goal posts again: that because God moral character is unchangeable it does not follow that all His decisions or acts are determined.
    Sounds like a fairly impotent character though, seer. He has no ability to lie, no ability to do wrong, no ability to think. You can't even define such a one as moral, because he has no choice when it comes to morality.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      No, the fact that god can't lie just proves his non-omnipotence. He can hardly be defined as moral either if he has no choice in the matter.
      Jim we have been over this! You are a materialist, no free will exists in your (if you think otherwise please show how it is possible). If I follow your logic no one does good or evil.

      How so? The two are the same as far as human thinking goes, so how is it different with god?
      Read what I said. Thoughts are not the same as events, yet as an atheist you would have to believe in an infinite regression of past events to get to this present universe.

      Well you seem to know everything else about gods nature, why don't you know that?
      It is not revealed in Scripture, one can only speculate.

      Sounds like a fairly impotent character though, seer. He has no ability to lie, no ability to do wrong, no ability to think. You can't even define such a one as moral, because he has no choice when it comes to morality.
      If the God who created this universe is impotent what does that make us?
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Charles View Post
        So, once again you failed to adress the point. And now you admit that you do not understand important parts of the statement that you claim leads to death and hopelessness. I wonder if you can see the problem of concluding based on statements you do not understand.

        Anyway, let us see you adress the point that you have now tried to avoid a couple of times.
        Hey Charles I don't understand your point, it makes no sense to me, so try rephrasing. But atheism only leads to death, it is existential nihilism by definition, and that is a fact...
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          Hey Charles I don't understand your point, it makes no sense to me, so try rephrasing. But atheism only leads to death, it is existential nihilism by definition, and that is a fact...
          So, once again you failed to adress the point I made with regard to your post.

          And you continue to draw conclusion based on a text you admit you don't understand and seem to mistankenly think I am an atheist. It would perhaps be a good idea if you started to consider the points made and did not jump to conclusions. Then, slowly, see if you can understand the point. I am sure you can.
          "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Charles View Post
            So, once again you failed to adress the point I made with regard to your post.

            And you continue to draw conclusion based on a text you admit you don't understand and seem to mistankenly think I am an atheist. It would perhaps be a good idea if you started to consider the points made and did not jump to conclusions. Then, slowly, see if you can understand the point. I am sure you can.
            Nope Charles, just rephrase your point or question. And I was originally speaking to Tass and Jim L who are atheists, when you put your nose in.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              Nope Charles, just rephrase your point or question. And I was originally speaking to Tass and Jim L who are atheists, when you put your nose in.
              So, once again, you failed to adress the point. Here it is: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post683299

              And, then, you still fail to see the problem when you conclude based on a text you claim you do not understand? And by what logic am I am atheist because others are? Slow down, seer, and I am sure you will get the point.
              "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                So, once again, you failed to adress the point. Here it is: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post683299

                And, then, you still fail to see the problem when you conclude based on a text you claim you do not understand? And by what logic am I am atheist because others are? Slow down, seer, and I am sure you will get the point.
                Charles either rephrase your point or stop bring it up because I have no idea what your are getting at...If you don't rephrase please leave my thread...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Jim we have been over this! You are a materialist, no free will exists in your (if you think otherwise please show how it is possible). If I follow your logic no one does good or evil.
                  I have never come to that determination, i don't know if we have free will or not and nor do i know if ifree will can emerge from an otherwise determined universe.

                  Read what I said. Thoughts are not the same as events, yet as an atheist you would have to believe in an infinite regression of past events to get to this present universe.
                  I did read what you said, you asserted that thoughts are different than events with respect to the possibility of the occurence of an infinite regression. My question was, how so?

                  If the God who created this universe is impotent what does that make us?
                  Human.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    I have never come to that determination, i don't know if we have free will or not and nor do i know if ifree will can emerge from an otherwise determined universe.
                    Except there is no reason to think free will can emerge from a determined universe. So by your belief in the necessity of free will nothing would be good or bad in the universe.


                    I did read what you said, you asserted that thoughts are different than events with respect to the possibility of the occurence of an infinite regression. My question was, how so?
                    Thoughts are not physical things. Unless you believe they are. God's thoughts would not be subject to physical laws.
                    Human.
                    The point is if you defined the Creator as impotent then we are seriously impotent.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Except there is no reason to think free will can emerge from a determined universe. So by your belief in the necessity of free will nothing would be good or bad in the universe.
                      That isn't something that anybody knows, seer.



                      Thoughts are not physical things. Unless you believe they are. God's thoughts would not be subject to physical laws.
                      I think you know what I'm getting at seer. I know that thoughts are not physical things. But, they are either eternal, or they are temporal and subject to an infinite regress? What say you?

                      The point is if you defined the Creator as impotent then we are seriously impotent.
                      And your point being?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Of course it is arbitrary. Do you agree with with the murderous Communist?
                        It is no more “arbitrary” than the changing values and moral standards that the Judeo/Christian religion has exhibited over the centuries.

                        How is that consequential if we are inconsequential?
                        We are not inconsequential within the parameters of our loving families and supportive communities. In short, the things that actually matter in our daily lives as opposed to being fixated on the 'REAL LIFE' to come.

                        And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
                        The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
                        Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
                        That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
                        And then is heard no more. It is a tale
                        Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
                        Signifying nothing
                        .
                        This encapsulates Macbeth's despair resulting from his murderous political ambition, which had been fueled by the three witches. The moral is don't listen to witches nor any other claims unsupported by actual evidence.

                        That is false Tass, tell me one thing have have not answered over the years! I can't help it if your long term memory is lacking.
                        What you refer to as “answering the question” is invariably just a reiteration of your personal beliefs, i.e. no answer at all.

                        And how many times have you ignored my questions like in this thread? I asked you a number of times when debating the death penalty about the example of the sheep
                        Are you really equating sheep with the lives of conscious sentient individuals? Seriously.

                        If a man steals and eats another man's sheep and is required to give that man one of his own sheep, a sheep for a sheep, is that just? Yes or no?
                        It's up to civil law to deal with these so-called 'laws of retaliation'. But Jesus repudiates even that notion. “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well…” Matthew 5:38.

                        You Dominionism types always seem happier with of OT Law than with Jesus.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          It is no more “arbitrary” than the changing values and moral standards that the Judeo/Christian religion has exhibited over the centuries.
                          The point is Tass, God's moral law (and I stress moral law, not civil or ceremonial) remains certain and universal even if we ignore it or misunderstand it. Like the example I used; adultery would still be a moral wrong even if all Christian sects decided it was a moral good. Men are fickle, changeable, God is not.



                          We are not inconsequential within the parameters of our loving families and supportive communities. In short, the things that actually matter in our daily lives as opposed to being fixated on the 'REAL LIFE' to come.
                          You are arguing in a circle. We are consequential because we say we are consequential?


                          This encapsulates Macbeth's despair resulting from his murderous political ambition, which had been fueled by the three witches. The moral is don't listen to witches nor any other claims unsupported by actual evidence.
                          Perfectly accurate of the atheist's worldview.


                          What you refer to as “answering the question” is invariably just a reiteration of your personal beliefs, i.e. no answer at all.
                          As I thought. And BTW Tass everything you argue are reiterations of your personal beliefs - that is what we do here...


                          Are you really equating sheep with the lives of conscious sentient individuals? Seriously.



                          It's up to civil law to deal with these so-called 'laws of retaliation'. But Jesus repudiates even that notion. “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well…” Matthew 5:38.

                          You Dominionism types always seem happier with of OT Law than with Jesus.
                          Now you are quoting Jesus? And you did not answer the question: is a sheep for a sheep just? Yes or no?
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            The point is Tass, God's moral law (and I stress moral law, not civil or ceremonial) remains certain and universal even if we ignore it or misunderstand it. Like the example I used; adultery would still be a moral wrong even if all Christian sects decided it was a moral good. Men are fickle, changeable, God is not.
                            And what you obviously fail to see is that what you describe as "God's moral law" is nothing more than your idea or interpretation based on ideas about a god whose existence is uncertain. So whether God exists or not is uncertain and what "God's moral law" (as if moral exists due to a decision...) is is even more uncertain. If that is what you describe as certain and universal I am not buying. But you are finding yourself in "good" company with quite many others claiming certainty based on the exact same "certainty". Not that you would agree with them of course....
                            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                              And what you obviously fail to see is that what you describe as "God's moral law" is nothing more than your idea or interpretation based on ideas about a god whose existence is uncertain. So whether God exists or not is uncertain and what "God's moral law" (as if moral exists due to a decision...) is is even more uncertain. If that is what you describe as certain and universal I am not buying. But you are finding yourself in "good" company with quite many others claiming certainty based on the exact same "certainty". Not that you would agree with them of course....
                              The fact is Charles uncertainty dogs us on every level about most everything.. And if the law of God is uncertain as outlined in the New Testament, how much more uncertain is your moral realism? There is zero confidence in that...
                              Last edited by seer; 11-12-2019, 11:02 AM.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                And that is your opinion. And if the law of God is uncertain as outlined in the New Testament, how much more uncertain is your moral realism? There is zero confidence in that...
                                Calling it my opinion does not show it either wrong or right. Care to adresse the points, seer?

                                And your very own words prove my points when you write "And if the law of God is". You do note the "if". We can all claim that "if" certain things are the case, then they are the case. If we do not know whether the "if" is anything but a possibility it certainly does not take us beyond the level of wishful thinking and what is completely arbitrary. You are basically just saying "If I am right, then I am right" which is not much proof.

                                With regard to "the law of God" in the New Testament i would be interested in seeing your interpretation of it. Because that is the next step in the line of the arbitrary and uncertain. People tend to interpret very differently.
                                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                                Comment

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