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  • Originally posted by Charles View Post
    Calling it my opinion does not show it either wrong or right. Care to adresse the points, seer?
    Actually I edited that out and said: The fact is Charles uncertainty dogs us on every level about most everything...I assume you agree.

    And your very own words prove my points when you write "And if the law of God is". You do note the "if". We can all claim that "if" certain things are the case, then they are the case. If we do not know whether the "if" is anything but a possibility it certainly does not take us beyond the level of wishful thinking and what is completely arbitrary. You are basically just saying "If I am right, then I am right" which is not much proof.
    Yet you are a moral realist who can't make a case for any specific universal moral truth (as we have seen in the past) but you feel that you have a rational justification for judging my position? So how does your moral realism get us beyond wishful thinking? Exactly...


    With regard to "the law of God" in the New Testament i would be interested in seeing your interpretation of it. Because that is the next step in the line of the arbitrary and uncertain. People tend to interpret very differently.
    You have to be specific, to deal with specific texts. For instance, like I discussed with Tass - adultery is immoral according to the NT. I would like to see that interpreted to being moral and acceptable.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Actually I edited that out and said: The fact is Charles uncertainty dogs us on every level about most everything...I assume you agree.



      Yet you are a moral realist who can't make a case for any specific universal moral truth (as we have seen in the past) but you feel that you have a rational justification for judging my position? So how does your moral realism get us beyond wishful thinking? Exactly...




      You have to be specific, to deal with specific texts. For instance, like I discussed with Tass - adultery is immoral according to the NT. I would like to see that interpreted to being moral and acceptable.
      I find it interesting how you make false claims about what I said in the past when you cannot adress the points. You failed to adress my point yesterday and it continues today. So, obviously, you could not get past the "if" which is what anyone can say. Are you seriously accusing others for promoting death and hopelessness and then refusing to provide anything better than a simple statement that "if" which you cannot support? And I am sure you recongnize that death and suffering to a very large degree comes from those who claim they have god given mandate to do what is "right". And they have arbitrarily chosen what God to believe in and what interpretation of "his" words to believe in...

      You claim to oppose to the arbitrary and when asked to provide we get an "if".
      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Charles View Post
        I find it interesting how you make false claims about what I said in the past when you cannot adress the points. You failed to adress my point yesterday and it continues today. So, obviously, you could not get past the "if" which is what anyone can say. Are you seriously accusing others for promoting death and hopelessness and then refusing to provide anything better than a simple statement that "if" which you cannot support? And I am sure you recongnize that death and suffering to a very large degree comes from those who claim they have god given mandate to do what is "right". And they have arbitrarily chosen what God to believe in and what interpretation of "his" words to believe in...

        You claim to oppose to the arbitrary and when asked to provide we get an "if".
        So you are not a moral realist? And that is not wishful thinking? That you have certainty? Where? But the point is without God it is all death and hopelessness - what is left but death? Eternal dust...
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          So you are not a moral realist? And that is not wishful thinking? That you have certainty? Where? But the point is without God it is all death and hopelessness - what is left but death? Eternal dust...
          I'm reminded of the ending of Stanley Kubrick's Barry Lyndon

          "It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; Good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor they are all equal now."

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            So you are not a moral realist? And that is not wishful thinking? That you have certainty? Where? But the point is without God it is all death and hopelessness - what is left but death? Eternal dust...
            Couldn't help but notice that you either missed or ignored my last posting, seer. I'll ask again. You made the assertion that thought events are different than physical events with respect to time. My question then was; in what way are they different? Do you mean to say the thought events are eternal as opposed to physical events which are temporal?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              The point is Tass, God's moral law (and I stress moral law, not civil or ceremonial) remains certain and universal even if we ignore it or misunderstand it. Like the example I used; adultery would still be a moral wrong even if all Christian sects decided it was a moral good. Men are fickle, changeable, God is not.
              If God’s moral law “remains certain and universal” you need to explain why the adherents of this so-called “certain and universal law” have such a long history of changing the social values and moral standards. This “universal moral law” of yours has demonstrably been made to conform to the ever evolving changing social values of the day...from slave-ownership to the role of women in society.

              You are arguing in a circle. We are consequential because we say we are consequential?
              We are “consequential” because we are the product of evolution and the resultant necessary social behavior for humanity to survive as cooperative intelligent social animals. It’s what we have evolved to be and it's all we can ever be, despite the wishful thinking of some.

              Perfectly accurate of the atheist's worldview.
              I doubt there were many atheists around in Shakespeare’s day nor among created characters such as Macbeth.

              Now you are quoting Jesus? And you did not answer the question: is a sheep for a sheep just? Yes or no?
              Jesus is your supposed moral authority. And he says not to render an “eye for an eye and tooth for tooth” nor, in this instance, a "sheep for a sheep". For us heathen, we have civil law to deal with problems of sheep theft. But, in most developed countries, this no longer applies to a life for a life as per capital punishment.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                If God’s moral law “remains certain and universal” you need to explain why the adherents of this so-called “certain and universal law” have such a long history of changing the social values and moral standards. This “universal moral law” of yours has demonstrably been made to conform to the ever evolving changing social values of the day...from slave-ownership to the role of women in society.
                Tass because men are wicked and often influenced by the world. Or don't give supremacy to Scripture. Yet there are many Christians like myself, and most in my church, who do not let the culture change our moral views.



                We are “consequential” because we are the product of evolution and the resultant necessary social behavior for humanity to survive as cooperative intelligent social animals. It’s what we have evolved to be and it's all we can ever be, despite the wishful thinking of some.
                That makes no sense, evolutionary biology does not confer significance on human beings any more than it did for dinosaurs.



                I doubt there were many atheists around in Shakespeare’s day nor among created characters such as Macbeth.
                Existential nihilism is the logical end of atheism, Shakespeare just had a flowery way of stating it.

                Existential nihilism has been a part of the Western intellectual tradition since the Cyrenaics, such as Hegesias of Cyrene. During the Renaissance, William Shakespeare eloquently summarised the existential nihilist's perspective through Macbeth's mindset in the end of the eponymous play. Arthur Schopenhauer, Sřren Kierkegaard and Friedrich Nietzsche further expanded on these ideas, and Nietzsche, particularly, has become a major figure in existential nihilism.
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_nihilism
                Jesus is your supposed moral authority. And he says not to render an “eye for an eye and tooth for tooth” nor, in this instance, a "sheep for a sheep". For us heathen, we have civil law to deal with problems of sheep theft. But, in most developed countries, this no longer applies to a life for a life as per capital punishment.
                That is not what I asked - is a sheep for a sheep just?
                Last edited by seer; 11-13-2019, 07:25 AM.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Couldn't help but notice that you either missed or ignored my last posting, seer. I'll ask again. You made the assertion that thought events are different than physical events with respect to time. My question then was; in what way are they different? Do you mean to say the thought events are eternal as opposed to physical events which are temporal?
                  First Jim, I made clear that we don't know how God thinks, if He is timeless do His thoughts run in series like ours? And since thoughts are not physical things would non-physical things be subject to the same problems or absurdities that one may encounter with the infinite regression of physical events? Who knows...
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    First Jim, I made clear that we don't know how God thinks, if He is timeless do His thoughts run in series like ours? And since thoughts are not physical things would non-physical things be subject to the same problems or absurdities that one may encounter with the infinite regression of physical events? Who knows...
                    It's either or, seer, either eternal or temporal. Thoughts, like physical events, either begin to exist or they are eternal. So, which would you say it is in gods case?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      It's either or, seer, either eternal or temporal. Thoughts, like physical events, either begin to exist or they are eternal. So, which would you say it is in gods case?
                      Like I said Jim, I don't know. From Scripture we do know that God is all knowing (He doesn't learn anything new), and that He creates and interacts with the temporal, in time.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Tass because men are wicked and often influenced by the world. Or don't give supremacy to Scripture. Yet there are many Christians like myself, and most in my church, who do not let the culture change our moral views.
                        The Christian slave-owners in the Deep South said the same.

                        That makes no sense, evolutionary biology does not confer significance on human beings any more than it did for dinosaurs.
                        We have evolved to be concerned about our survival and the survival and quality of life for ourselves and our loved ones is highly significant as far as we are concerned.

                        Existential nihilism is the logical end of atheism, Shakespeare just had a flowery way of stating it.
                        Neither theists nor atheists need philosophy to tell them what they value. A subjective value-system is true of theists and non-theists alike.

                        That is not what I asked - is a sheep for a sheep just?
                        Not for Christians. Jesus said in Matthew 5:38-48. 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

                        OTOH, for us heathen, we have civil law to deal with problems of sheep theft.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          The Christian slave-owners in the Deep South said the same.
                          Tass, Slavery itself is neither condemned or condoned in scripture. But "manstealing" (kidnapping) is clearly condemned in Scripture and was a death penalty offense in the Old Testament. And slavery in the South was predicated on kidnapping, so immoral. No matter what the slavers claimed. Exodus 21:16, Deuteronomy 24:7, 1 Timothy 1:10.


                          We have evolved to be concerned about our survival and the survival and quality of life for ourselves and our loved ones is highly significant as far as we are concerned.
                          Did the Maoists think that the lives of the millions they murdered significant? So who is correct - you or them?

                          Neither theists nor atheists need philosophy to tell them what they value. A subjective value-system is true of theists and non-theists alike.
                          Again, by definition atheism leads logically to existential nihilism. Just admit it...


                          Not for Christians. Jesus said in Matthew 5:38-48. 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

                          OTOH, for us heathen, we have civil law to deal with problems of sheep theft.
                          Again Tass, why won't you give a direct answer? Is a sheep for a sheep just? Yes or no?
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Like I said Jim, I don't know. From Scripture we do know that God is all knowing (He doesn't learn anything new), and that He creates and interacts with the temporal, in time.
                            Okay, i realize you don't know, but it is either one or the other, correct. Like our own thoughts, gods thoughts would need either be temporal, and if not temoral they would need be eternal, i.e. having nothing to do with time. Isn't that correct? And btw, when you say god doesn't learn anything new, that goes for the goings on in the temporal world as well, and so gods thoughts would come prior to anything happening temporally,correct?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Okay, i realize you don't know, but it is either one or the other, correct. Like our own thoughts, gods thoughts would need either be temporal, and if not temoral they would need be eternal, i.e. having nothing to do with time. Isn't that correct? And btw, when you say god doesn't learn anything new, that goes for the goings on in the temporal world as well, and so gods thoughts would come prior to anything happening temporally,correct?
                              Well no Jim, according to the B theory of time (as we have discussed in the past) all your thoughts and acts exist simultaneously yet we seem to think and act in series. So both exist.

                              The B-theory of time is the name given to one of two positions regarding philosophy of time. B-theorists argue that the flow of time is an illusion, that the past, present and future are equally real, and that time is tenseless. ... B-theory is often drawn upon in theoretical physics, and in theories such as eternalism.

                              https://www.google.com/search?q=b+th...hrome&ie=UTF-8
                              In other words Jim we do not understand time, so trying to apply any of this to our thinking or the thinking of God is not possible.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Well no Jim, according to the B theory of time (as we have discussed in the past) all your thoughts and acts exist simultaneously yet we seem to think and act in series. So both exist.



                                In other words Jim we do not understand time, so trying to apply any of this to our thinking or the thinking of God is not possible.
                                No seer, you misunderstand. The B-theory is just as cited in your link, according to that theory time is an illusion. But we are discussing god, who is said to be outside of time, correct. So, when defining gods thoughts, they would need be eternal, correct?

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