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Thread: what is the threat of antinomianism?

  1. #71
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I don't think that is correct at all. First, how many times have you as a Christian thought as Paul did: The good that I want to do I don't, the evil that I don't want to do I do. This may not describe your christian walk, but it does mine.
    Yes, my personal experience does reflect that portion of ch. 7. But even though I am broadly and loosely sympathetic to the "Wesleyan Quadrilateral" and the value of "experience," I try to not let it be my primary guide in interpreting Scripture. I tend to agree with Keener (and, FWIW, with Fee & Stuart in How to Study the Bible, Book by Book and Witherington in Paul's Letter to the Romans) that Paul is using rhetorical techniques to compare attempts to achieve righteousness by law sans Spirit in ch. 7 with life empowered by the Spirit in ch. 8.

    If you and I find ch. 7 describes us better than ch. 8 does, perhaps we have significant problems to address.

    Second, Phil 3: If anyone else thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, persecuting the church; as to righteousness under the law, faultless.
    I'm not sure what your point is in quoting this. It's an isolated verse from an entirely different letter to a different congregation. The church at Rome did not have access to the letter to the Philippians -- not least because it was not yet written -- and in any case would have been expected to understand their own letter on its own terms.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

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  2. #72
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd
    I tend to agree with Keener (and, FWIW, with Fee & Stuart in How to Study the Bible, Book by Book and Witherington in Paul's Letter to the Romans) that Paul is using rhetorical techniques to compare attempts to achieve righteousness by law sans Spirit in ch. 7 with life empowered by the Spirit in ch. 8.
    He specifically mentions at the end of Chapter 7, and then repeats it in Chapter 8, that the temptations he is describing will remain a problem until the resurrection of the body of death. It doesn't have anything to do with "rhetorical techniques."

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    Yes, my personal experience does reflect that portion of ch. 7. But even though I am broadly and loosely sympathetic to the "Wesleyan Quadrilateral" and the value of "experience," I try to not let it be my primary guide in interpreting Scripture. I tend to agree with Keener (and, FWIW, with Fee & Stuart in How to Study the Bible, Book by Book and Witherington in Paul's Letter to the Romans) that Paul is using rhetorical techniques to compare attempts to achieve righteousness by law sans Spirit in ch. 7 with life empowered by the Spirit in ch. 8.

    If you and I find ch. 7 describes us better than ch. 8 does, perhaps we have significant problems to address.
    I think we all have significant problems when trying to live up to the example of Christ. Thank God for grace through faith...



    I'm not sure what your point is in quoting this. It's an isolated verse from an entirely different letter to a different congregation. The church at Rome did not have access to the letter to the Philippians -- not least because it was not yet written -- and in any case would have been expected to understand their own letter on its own terms.
    The point is that Paul kept the law. Your quote suggested that Paul "in the context" has been describing his past life under law. Yet He says in Phil. that he was faultless when it came to righteousness under the law.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  4. #74
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    He specifically mentions at the end of Chapter 7, and then repeats it in Chapter 8, that the temptations he is describing will remain a problem until the resurrection of the body of death. It doesn't have anything to do with "rhetorical techniques."
    Er, aren't 7 & 8 a chaism?

  5. #75
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I think we all have significant problems when trying to live up to the example of Christ. Thank God for grace through faith...





    The point is that Paul kept the law. Your quote suggested that Paul "in the context" has been describing his past life under law. Yet He says in Phil. that he was faultless when it came to righteousness under the law.
    Er, Seer, that literally cannot mean morally pure - he'd have no need to present his sacrifices which as an observant Jew he certainly did. It must mean he was diligent in his observance - which affirms that he did regard himself as having sinned at that time - because he's making atonement at the Temple.

    It doesn't mean he regarded following the law as salvic - he refutes that in Romans. The law showed his sin - it didn't cure it, not even when he was scrupulously observant.

    And he didn't keep the law as he had previously - he was preaching to Gentiles in their homes.

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Er, Seer, that literally cannot mean morally pure - he'd have no need to present his sacrifices which as an observant Jew he certainly did. It must mean he was diligent in his observance - which affirms that he did regard himself as having sinned at that time - because he's making atonement at the Temple.
    You are correct, it does not mean morally pure. But they had an avenue, as you said, to deal with sin. I don't think one can relegate Romans 7 to his past experiences.

    It doesn't mean he regarded following the law as salvic - he refutes that in Romans. The law showed his sin - it didn't cure it, not even when he was scrupulously observant.

    And he didn't keep the law as he had previously - he was preaching to Gentiles in their homes.
    OK, I think...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  7. #77
    tWebber Thoughtful Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewhitney View Post
    What is the threat of what you think of as Christian antinomianism?
    I've been thinking about this for awhile. I've come to a conclusion it's a negative because of the following:


    • No need for discipleship
    • The Christian life and the worldly life start to look the same. Christianity loses it's distinctiveness that may it attractive in the early centuries
    • No desire by the Christian to grow into the knowledge and likeness of Christ
    • The theology becomes Moralistic Therapeutic Deism
    • It changes the Christian witness to the blandness of The Shack or The Story.


    In short, I think it produces lazy Christians.
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    My time to be on TWeb is unpredictable. It may take a few days for me to see your post and respond.

  8. #78
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
    No need for discipleship
    How do you define "discipleship"?

    I think I agree with your post with the caveat that I have read neither of the two books you mention so can't pass judgment on them one way or the other.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    tWebber Thoughtful Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    How do you define "discipleship"?

    I think I agree with your post with the caveat that I have read neither of the two books you mention so can't pass judgment on them one way or the other.
    By discipleship I mean a process where one grows into the knowledge and stature of Jesus. Also, an increasing recognition that one is in the world but not of the world. Christian antinomianism just seems to lack any motive to do these. It just seems to be a coast along lifestyle.

    Regarding the books, you haven't missed much.
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    My time to be on TWeb is unpredictable. It may take a few days for me to see your post and respond.

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