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Thread: In light of Canada's federal election today

  1. #11
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity
    Consider a world in which everyone except me was absolutely dirt poor, like really really subsistence poor. And I, renaming myself Scrooge McDuck, owned all the world's gold and resources. And they sat in my vault. And each day I did pretty much nothing with them, save perhaps had some fun in my vault:



    I think it's pretty self-evident in such a situation that the poor would become richer if the money was taken off me and given to the poor. The world in general would be much better off.

    So if the quoted statement above is meant to be some sort of logical truism that holds always and everywhere, then it is self-evidently not the case. In that sense, the statement is false, and obviously so.

    If it is meant to be a contextual statement about Canada in the present day, the current distribution of money, how that money is currently being used to create prosperity, and the effects of possible laws being suggested to redistribute that... then, well, there's not really a way to know whether the statement is true or false - we would have to do quite a complex evaluation for each law individually and even then we would be only guessing at the effects. So it comes across as a bit idiotic to make such a claim as that statement does.

    2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
    It's been weighing on my mind lately how true this is, in the opposite way to what's meant here.

    Some people earn money by working hard all day and being paid wages / salary. Other people earn money by doing nothing at all and their existing money generates more money for them (capital gains, investments). For want of better terms, we could call these two groups the hard workers and the idle rich. Inherently, the money that is accruing to the idle rich they are accruing without working for, and it is inherently coming to them at the expense of the hard workers who are not receiving the full worth of their hard days labor, as instead the idle rich are skimming their "profits" off the top.

    So yes, the idle rich are bums who are basically stealing of the hard-working people, and that is the dumb way our economic system currently works. Unfortunately the person writing these idiotic statements basically meant the opposite and was trying to convince people to oppose the poor and believe the poor are the ones fleecing the system. It is amusing how often the rich and powerful try to convince people that it is the poor and destitute who really have all the power and who are really the ones who are ripping of the system, even as the rich and powerful are running out the back door with all the money, and amusing how often people fall for their ridiculous claims.

    3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from someone else
    This is either trivially true in an irrelevant way: Our whole economic system works by exchanges, e.g. a employer pays their employees out of the money their company has made from sales of goods in which they received that money from others, those employees then use that money to go out and buy goods and thus the money changes hands again, so as far as the money is concerned each person always takes it from the previous person and passes it to the next because that is how our economic system works (except if it gets into the hands of the rich where it gets stuck in the equivalent of a giant vault where it does nothing useful, see above, and this is a problem). So the government is no better nor worse than anyone else in this regard.

    Or, more generally speaking, it isn't true. The government is in a unique economic position outside of the system of monetary transfer everyone else engages in. The government prints the money. Look at the money in your wallet, and whats written on it. Made by the government. The beginning of that note was not the government taking it from someone else as the claim above alleges. It began with the government having it made. More generally, the government magics money out of nothing all the time and that is what the Federal Reserve does and it delegates that power to banks to issue loans. Anytime you get a mortgage on your house or take out a loan, inherently that is money that the government has created for you to have (or specifically allowed the bank to create on its behalf).

    While the majority of the money the government spends it has taken from the populace in taxes, not all of it is, and that doesn't have to be the majority source of govt expenditure (several modern libertarian economists have suggested the government should make more money out of nothing and primarily fund itself that way).

    4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
    This is a rather trite play on words. Mathematically, division isn't multiplication, sure.

    But the more general idea its trying to express seems obviously false. A simple example would be diversified funds, where a person looking to make money essentially divides that money up among as many different investments as possible in order to ensure that even if some of those investments don't work that they still make a good return. So they are "multiplying their wealth" (investing at a profit) "by dividing it" (ie splitting it up).

    In the case of whether Scrooge McDuck's vault of riches would serve the world better if it were spread amongst an impoverished world rather than sitting in his vault, the answer seems to be an obvious yes. And so that is another case where wealth would be multiplied by dividing it. A key concept in terms of understand why handing out Scrooge's dollars to an impoverished world is called "marginal utility", which refers to the usefulness each additional dollar has to a person who already has some amount. Consider Scrooge's giant money filled vault - if we put an extra dollar in his vault or removed a dollar from his vault, he wouldn't even notice, doing so would have no effect on anything. Hence the "marginal utility" of that dollar is zero - it has no effect when created or destroyed. But consider an impoverished person in Scrooge's world who has only pennies to their family's name, giving them an extra dollar would be huge for them, allowing them to massively transform their life, feed their family, buy something crucial. They might be able to put that money toward a bike to transport the to their workplace, which then might mean they could work an extra hour a day at work because their commute was faster than their previous walking, and so they create an hour a day more worth of products and earn an hour a day more of wages, and so then they create many more dollars worth of value of goods in the economy and equally more for their own pocket. So the marginal utility of that dollar given to that impoverished person is many many dollars. In the general case, the marginal utility of money is almost always more for a poor person than a rich person. So, yes, in general, taking money off a rich person and giving it to a poor person on average has the effect of improving the poor person's life more than it takes away from the rich person, and benefiting the economy in general by increasing total economic productivity.

    5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work, because the other half is going to take care of them...
    Let's be clear for a moment on who this 'half the people' is exactly. The idiot who wrote this probably thinks they are lazy bums who could work but don't. Canada's unemployment rate is currently less than 6%. So even if ALL the unemployed are lazy bums who aren't looking for a job and believe they don't have to work, they are 1/17th of the population. That is far, far, far from 'half of the people'.

    But the statement is approximately correct insofar as about half the total population of Canada does work and about half do not. So who, in fact, is actually the half of the population who isn't working? The elderly. Children. Stay-at-home-mothers whose husbands are the bread-winners for the family. Is the idiot who wrote the statement seriously worried about children not being put into factories at the age of 5? Worried about an 80 year old granny getting a 'free ride' by not being forced to work for a living? Strongly against wives who opt for childcare duties while their husbands work? Of course not. The person is ignorantly pretending that the half of people who don't work are working-age people who choose to get government handouts rather than work, when in fact such people constitution an almost negligible fraction of the population.

    Can you think of a reason for not sharing this?
    I certainly wouldn't want people to think I was that stupid.

  2. #12
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    tl;dr
    The first paragraph did nicely summarize how the rich live in the minds of the left. Rather than investing their money which creates jobs they simply hoard it in vaults never spending a dime unless absolutely necessary. The funny thing is that could well be the result if the left had their way. Passing punitive taxes making it just not worth the risk to invest or expand and ever expanding regulations making it unprofitable to continue in business. So they simply close their businesses and enjoys the rest of their days relaxing and living off their accumulated wealth as more and more people no longer able to earn any sort of living fall to a subsistence level.

    Just remember folks, just how many poor people have you ever worked for?

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  3. Amen mossrose, MaxVel, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  4. #13
    Professor Zymologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Melody Maker View Post
    Trudeau is not my prime minister, never was and never will be. I'm sure he collided with the Russians to get extra votes.

    I still say he ought to be impeached.
    Well, he rather obviously had foreign help....
    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

  5. Amen mossrose, MaxVel, The Melody Maker amen'd this post.
  6. #14
    tWebber MaxVel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight
    Some people earn money by working hard all day and being paid wages / salary. Other people earn money by doing nothing at all and their existing money generates more money for them (capital gains, investments). For want of better terms, we could call these two groups the hard workers and the idle rich. Inherently, the money that is accruing to the idle rich they are accruing without working for, and it is inherently coming to them at the expense of the hard workers who are not receiving the full worth of their hard days labor, as instead the idle rich are skimming their "profits" off the top.
    Or you could use two neutral terms rather than two that are loaded and prejudiced. Why not 'the uneducated masses' and the 'benevolent sponsors'? Or 'labourers' and 'investors'?


    But that would mean that you'd have to make a real argument instead of spouting nonsense.
    Last edited by MaxVel; 10-22-2019 at 08:21 AM.
    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

  7. Amen RumTumTugger, Chaotic Void amen'd this post.
  8. #15
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demi-conservative View Post
    The last two sentences are so Canadian. No wonder you lose, too nice, like sheep to the slaughter.
    I don't know if a Canadian wrote that or not. I found it on Facebook.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

  9. #16
    tWebber MaxVel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Just remember folks, just how many poor people have you ever worked for?

    Does being self-employed count?
    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

  10. Amen mossrose amen'd this post.
  11. #17
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Starlight, before I tell you to shut up and get out of my thread, I am going to tell you this.

    Point your stupid duck analogy straight at Justin Trudeau, born into wealth and privilege and entitlement, and tell him to give all his family money to everybody else. Let's see how that goes, mmkay?

    Now, shut up and get out of my thread.

    I am asking all other posters to not respond to anything he has said here.
    Last edited by mossrose; 10-22-2019 at 08:16 AM.


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  12. Amen The Melody Maker amen'd this post.
  13. #18
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    This morning there is one Liberal seat in Manitoba, none in Saskatchewan and one NDP seat in Alberta.

    All others are Conservative.

    Means nothing to Ottawa except further western alienation. Trudeau promises that we are "an essential part of Canada", but that only means he still wants Alberta to send transfer payments to the other provinces.

    Well, here's news for him. Our economy has been so bad the last 4 years that we have nothing to send. And unless he sets out to get the pipeline built that he's been waffling on for 4 years, there won't BE anything to send.

    We are still required to send it, though. Blood from a stone. I'm looking for separists to come out stronger than ever now.
    Last edited by mossrose; 10-22-2019 at 08:51 AM.


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  14. Amen The Melody Maker amen'd this post.
  15. #19
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    The first paragraph did nicely summarize how the rich live in the minds of the left. Rather than investing their money which creates jobs they simply hoard it in vaults never spending a dime unless absolutely necessary. The funny thing is that could well be the result if the left had their way. Passing punitive taxes making it just not worth the risk to invest or expand and ever expanding regulations making it unprofitable to continue in business. So they simply close their businesses and enjoys the rest of their days relaxing and living off their accumulated wealth as more and more people no longer able to earn any sort of living fall to a subsistence level.

    Just remember folks, just how many poor people have you ever worked for?
    The takeaway I got is:

    “Starlight gets his ideas about wealth from cartoons made for children.”
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  16. Amen QuantaFille, RumTumTugger, Chaotic Void amen'd this post.
  17. #20
    Tweeb Overlord Chaotic Void's Avatar
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    I'm not happy that he's still in office, but he's got a Minority Government with a MASSIVE Conservative* opposition, so now he has to walk on eggshells lest someone slap him upside the head with a Motion of No Confidence.

    *They're more like the Diet Socialist Party of Canada... but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
    Mercenary Maxim 37: There is No 'Overkill.' There is merely 'Open Fire,' and 'I need to Reload.'

  18. Amen mossrose amen'd this post.

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