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Thread: Justice Department Distances Itself From Giuliani

  1. #21
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    In other news, the Deep State (which the New York Times recently admitted is real) is sweating bullets over Durham's investigation. Coney and Brennan recently lawyered up.

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...spygate-probe/

    As reported in the Times and elsewhere, the "deep state" is a conspiracy theory which misses the obvious: The most aggressive push-backs against Trump have all come from his own appointees. Hence the "deep state," such as it is, is the state Trump brought in with him.

    That would include Ambassador Yovanovich's replacement, Ambassador Taylor, brought in out of retirement, and quoted above retelling an account from the president relayed by Ambassador Sondland stating there was "no quid pro quo" before going on to flesh out the contradiction in excruciating detail in his opening statement, before testifying for a further nine hours before the committee.

    An Envoy’s Damning Account of Trump’s Ukraine Pressure and Its Consequences
    William B. Taylor Jr. laid out in visceral terms the potentially life-or-death stakes of what he saw as an illegitimate scheme to pressure Kiev for political help by suspending American security aid.

    By Peter Baker
    Published Oct. 22, 2019
    Updated Oct. 23, 2019, 6:10 a.m. ET

    WASHINGTON — He stood on one side of a war-damaged bridge in Ukraine staring across at Russian-backed forces and saw the real-world consequences of President Trump’s efforts to advance a personal agenda. “More Ukrainians,” he said, “would undoubtedly die.”

    [...]

    In by far the most damning account yet to become public in the House impeachment inquiry Mr. Taylor described a president holding up $391 million in assistance for the clear purpose of forcing Ukraine to help incriminate Mr. Trump’s domestic rivals. Mr. Trump’s actions, he testified, undercut American allies desperately fighting off Russia’s attempt to redraw the boundaries of Europe through force.

    It's almost immaterial at this point to note that no quid pro quo is required to determine that asking for foreign assistance in a U.S. election campaign is illegal. In fact, "collusion," all by itself, was, and oddly still is, judging from the cartoons posted in this thread, considered a serious breach with respect to the Russians. It's astounding to find Trump releasing a transcript of a call less than 24 hours after Mueller had finished his testimony before the congress showing exactly that with the newly-elected president of Ukraine.

    The "quid" in this case, only suggested previously, included military assistance in support of not just Ukraine, but our own national security, needed by Ukraine to resist military attacks from Russia within their own sovereign territory. The "quo" was an investigation into various charges pushed by Giuliani and his recently-arrested companions that have been widely debunked, including charges from Lutsenko that Giuliani had himself previously acknowledged were bogus.

    Read the Ukraine Envoy’s
    Statement to Impeachment Inquiry

    OCT. 22, 2019

    William B. Taylor Jr., the United States’ top diplomat in Ukraine, delivered testimony to impeachment investigators on Tuesday that described an effort by President Trump to withhold aid for Ukraine until the country’s leader agreed to investigate Mr. Trump’s political rivals. Read six takeaways from Mr. Taylor’s testimony.

    During this same [September 1] phone call I had with Mr. Morrison, he went on to describe a conversation Ambassador Sondland had with Mr. Yermak at Warsaw. Ambassador Sondland told Mr. Yermak that the security assistance money would not come until President Zelenskyy committed to pursue the Burisma investigation. I was alarmed by what Mr. Morrison told me about the Sondland-Yermak conversation. This was the first time I had heard that the security assistance — not just the White House meeting — was conditioned on the investigations.

    With respect to Zelinskyy, this is far beyond mere pressure. This was literally "gun to the head" coercion. As Taylor has said, without the aid then being withheld, “More Ukrainians would undoubtedly die.”

  2. #22
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtfloor View Post
    Factually incorrect and legally worthless, hot air. No, at this point it is just a matter of timing the articles of impeachment to be as embarrassing as possible to the Trump Clan of demonic reprobates.
    It's time to wake up, kiddo, Rachel is lying to you. Democrats do not have the facts on their side. It's why they refuse to make their impeachment inquiry official with a House vote, and why they refuse to open the door to their hearings, and it's why they won't ever actually vote to impeach, because if this thing ever gets to the Senate where everything will be out in the open, and Trump's lawyers will have the opportunity to tear witnesses like Taylor to shreds, then I think the public will be rightly furious at what the Democrats tried to pull. It's best for them politically to keep everything cloaked in darkness in order to string along low-info morons like you. Only Durham and Barr are about to drop the hammer, and the Democrats are quickly running out of time.

    Stay tuned, because things are finally getting interesting!
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  3. #23
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    As report ed in the Times and elsewhere, the "deep state" is a conspiracy theory which misses the obvious: The most aggressive push-backs against Trump have all come from his own appointees. Hence the "deep state," such as it is, is the state Trump brought in with him.

    That would include Ambassador Yovanovich's replacement, Ambassador Taylor, brought in out of retirement, and quoted above retelling an account from the president relayed by Ambassador Sondland stating there was "no quid pro quo" before going on to flesh out the contradiction in excruciating detail in his opening statement, before testifying for a further nine hours before the committee.

    An Envoy’s Damning Account of Trump’s Ukraine Pressure and Its Consequences
    William B. Taylor Jr. laid out in visceral terms the potentially life-or-death stakes of what he saw as an illegitimate scheme to pressure Kiev for political help by suspending American security aid.

    By Peter Baker
    Published Oct. 22, 2019
    Updated Oct. 23, 2019, 6:10 a.m. ET

    WASHINGTON — He stood on one side of a war-damaged bridge in Ukraine staring across at Russian-backed forces and saw the real-world consequences of President Trump’s efforts to advance a personal agenda. “More Ukrainians,” he said, “would undoubtedly die.”

    [...]

    In by far the most damning account yet to become public in the House impeachment inquiry Mr. Taylor described a president holding up $391 million in assistance for the clear purpose of forcing Ukraine to help incriminate Mr. Trump’s domestic rivals. Mr. Trump’s actions, he testified, undercut American allies desperately fighting off Russia’s attempt to redraw the boundaries of Europe through force.

    It's almost immaterial at this point to note that no quid pro quo is required to determine that asking for foreign assistance in a U.S. election campaign is illegal. In fact, "collusion," all by itself, was, and oddly still is, judging from the cartoons posted in this thread, considered a serious breach with respect to the Russians. It's astounding to find Trump releasing a transcript of a call less than 24 hours after Mueller had finished his testimony before the congress showing exactly that with the newly-elected president of Ukraine.

    The "quid" in this case, only suggested previously, included military assistance in support of not just Ukraine, but our own national security, needed by Ukraine to resist military attacks from Russia within their own sovereign territory. The "quo" was an investigation into various charges pushed by Giuliani and his recently-arrested companions that have been widely debunked, including charges from Lutsenko that Giuliani had himself previously acknowledged were bogus.

    Read the Ukraine Envoy’s
    Statement to Impeachment Inquiry

    OCT. 22, 2019

    William B. Taylor Jr., the United States’ top diplomat in Ukraine, delivered testimony to impeachment investigators on Tuesday that described an effort by President Trump to withhold aid for Ukraine until the country’s leader agreed to investigate Mr. Trump’s political rivals. Read six takeaways from Mr. Taylor’s testimony.

    During this same [September 1] phone call I had with Mr. Morrison, he went on to describe a conversation Ambassador Sondland had with Mr. Yermak at Warsaw. Ambassador Sondland told Mr. Yermak that the security assistance money would not come until President Zelenskyy committed to pursue the Burisma investigation. I was alarmed by what Mr. Morrison told me about the Sondland-Yermak conversation. This was the first time I had heard that the security assistance — not just the White House meeting — was conditioned on the investigations.

    With respect to Zelinskyy, this is far beyond mere pressure. This was literally "gun to the head" coercion. As Taylor has said, without the aid then being withheld, “More Ukrainians would undoubtedly die.”
    Read what Rep. Ratcliffe had to say. There is, to date, zero evidence that Ukraine officials were aware that military funds had been withheld making quid pro quo legally impossible. Not even Taylor disputed this fact when directly questioned!
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  4. #24
    radical strawberry
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    Prosecutors flagged possible ties between Ukrainian gas tycoon and Giuliani associates
    By Matt Zapotosky, Rosalind S. Helderman, Tom Hamburger and Josh Dawsey
    Oct. 22, 2019 at 8:22 p.m. EDT

    When two business associates of Rudolph W. Giuliani, President Trump’s personal lawyer, were arrested this month on charges that they funneled foreign money into U.S. elections, federal prosecutors working on a different case in Chicago took note.

    The investigators had previously come across the two men, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, as they pursued a long-standing case against a Ukrainian gas tycoon accused of bribery, according to two people familiar with the matter. They, like others interviewed regarding the case, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the ongoing litigation.

    The connections between Giuliani and these Ukrainian organized crime figures, becomes more pronounced each day, with unmistakable links to Trump which are bound to impact the impeachment inquiry and the eventual, foregone impeachment in the House and less certain trial in the Senate.

    Parnas had been working as an interpreter for the lawyers of the tycoon, Dmytro Firtash, since late July. Chicago prosecutors suspect there might be a broader relationship among Firtash, Parnas and Fruman, the people familiar with the matter said.

    The new focus on possible ties among the three men comes as the Ukrainian energy mogul has appeared to align himself with Trump and the president’s allies as he fights extradition to the United States.

    This summer, Firtash — at Parnas’s recommendation — hired two conservative attorneys who are top defenders of the president.

    Meanwhile, Parnas and Fruman, Soviet-born emigres with deep business ties in Ukraine, had been assisting Giuliani’s hunt for damaging information about Democrats in that country, an effort that is now the focus of the presidential impeachment inquiry.

    Unlike others posting this thread in partisan approval of these investigations, for the good of the country, I think we really need to get past this. Ideally, Trump should resign, soon, or even immediately, allowing Pence to start cleaning up the mess and the Republican party to find a viable presidential candidate for 2020. That's not at all possible, though, with hundreds of prosecutors looking to indict Trump on obstruction charges the moment he leaves office.

    Meanwhile, the rabbit hole keeps getting deeper, with Trump poised to drag as many as he can down with him.

  5. #25
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Read what Rep. Ratcliffe had to say. There is, to date, zero evidence that Ukraine officials were aware that military funds had been withheld making quid pro quo legally impossible. Not even Taylor disputed this fact when directly questioned!
    They didn't know at the time of the July 25 phone call, but became aware after the August 28 Politico story, updated August 29, and cited by Ambassador Taylor.

    Trump holds up Ukraine military aid meant to confront Russia
    By CAITLIN EMMA and CONNOR O’BRIEN 08/28/2019 06:11 PM EDT Updated 08/29/2019 03:40 PM EDT

    The Trump administration is slow-walking $250 million in military assistance to Ukraine, annoying lawmakers and advocates who argue the funding is critical to keeping Russia at bay.

    President Donald Trump asked his national security team to review the funding program, known as the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative, in order to ensure the money is being used in the best interest of the United States, a senior administration official told POLITICO on Wednesday.

    Contrary to your assertion, Taylor's opening statement referenced not only general Ukrainian awareness, but the actual Ukrainian official who contacted him about Ukrainian concerns about the withheld aid.

    The same day that I sent my cable to the Secretary, August 29, Mr. Yermak contacted me and was very concerned, asking about the withheld security assistance. The hold that the White House had placed on the assistance had just been made public that day in a Politico story. At that point, I was embarrassed that I could give him no explanation for why it was withheld.

  6. #26
    radical strawberry
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    Ukraine Knew of Aid Freeze by August, Undermining Trump Defense
    Top officials were told in early August about the delay of $391 million in security assistance, undercutting a chief argument President Trump has used to deny any quid pro quo.

    By Andrew E. Kramer and Kenneth P. Vogel
    Oct. 23, 2019
    Updated 12:12 p.m. ET

    KIEV, Ukraine — To Democrats who say that President Trump’s decision to freeze a $391 million military aid package to Ukraine was intended to bully Ukraine’s leader into carrying out investigations for Mr. Trump’s political benefit, the president and his allies have had a simple response: There could not have been any quid pro quo because the Ukrainians did not know the assistance had been blocked.

    Following testimony by William B. Taylor Jr., the top United States diplomat in Ukraine, to House impeachment investigators on Tuesday that the freezing of the aid was directly linked to Mr. Trump’s demand for the investigations, the president took to Twitter on Wednesday morning to approvingly quote a Republican member of Congress saying neither Mr. Taylor nor any other witness had “provided testimony that the Ukrainians were aware that military aid was being withheld.”

    But in fact, word of the aid freeze had gotten to high-level Ukrainian officials by the first week in August, according to interviews and documents obtained by The New York Times.

    The problem was not a bureaucratic glitch, the Ukrainians were told then. To address it, they were advised, they should reach out to Mick Mulvaney, the acting White House chief of staff, according to the interviews and records.

    Apparently, Ukrainians were made aware of the aid freeze almost immediately after the July 25 call, and Mulvaney has some more explaining to do.

  7. #27
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    “In 90 seconds, we had John Ratcliffe destroy Taylor’s whole argument,” McCarthy said. “We can’t really talk about it, but what we’re finding is just his questioning in 90 seconds refuted everything of what Adam Schiff leaves out there. There’s no quid pro quo, and what you find out in this process is all this information is just like that whistleblower. Remember, we haven’t seen that whistleblower. Everything is second-, third- and fourth-hand information.”

    https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2019...hole-argument/
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  8. #28
    tWebber firstfloor's Avatar
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    Russia “if you’re listening” has turned the GOP inside out. The idiotic Lindsey Graham and quite a few others are no more than Putin’s glove puppets.

    God save Pelosi.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” ― Anne Lamott
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell

  9. #29
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Now this is interesting...

    U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Bill Taylor, who provided key testimony to the Democrats’ controversial impeachment inquiry yesterday, has evidenced a close relationship with the Atlantic Council think tank, even writing Ukraine policy pieces with the organization’s director and analysis articles published by the Council.

    The Atlantic Council is funded by and works in partnership with Burisma, the natural gas company at the center of allegations regarding Joe Biden and his son, Hunter Biden.

    In addition to a direct relationship with the Atlantic Council, Taylor for the last nine years also served as a senior adviser to the U.S.-Ukraine Business Council (USUBC), which has co-hosted events with the Atlantic Council and has participated in events co-hosted jointly by the Atlantic Council and Burisma.

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...ed-think-tank/
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  10. #30
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Now this is interesting...

    [...]

    The Atlantic Council is funded by and works in partnership with Burisma, the natural gas company at the center of allegations regarding Joe Biden and his son, Hunter Biden.
    Burisma is listed as a funder for the Atlantic Council, but is not in the top ranks of donors, and cannot be reasonably seen as exercising meaningful influence considering its minor position and the wide variety of funding sources.

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