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Joe Biden Denied Holy Communion...

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    Um, how would he avoid it short of avoiding Mass?
    I "was Catholic" when I was a young man, because I was in love with a Catholic girl. I talked to the priest ahead of time, and we worked it out.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      The mortal sin distinction makes sense. I had wondered why politicians who support capital punishment aren't liable to lose Communion because the RCC also has a stance on that.
      I don't think they teach that the death penalty is an inherent evil.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
        this is an interesting issue...

        should people be restricted from Christian practices due to their thoughts?

        If you try to restrict people based on their ideas, then people may just be stifled from sharing what they think ... and then no others can teach such people more Christ-centered ideas (after someone has expressed bad doctrine).

        I know I have worded this badly. People could bring up a lot of exceptions due to the way I worded this. Maybe someone will recognize what I am asking so that the concern can be expressed a bit better.

        Part of the idea, in the Christian context, is that people are not supposed to be coerced into 'confessing' doctrines.
        I think I understand what you're trying to say...

        Remember, that joining a church is a voluntary act by the person. One would hope a person joining a church would take the time to understand the church's positions and decide he can abide by them. Certainly Biden was never forced to join the Catholic church and he's free to quit anytime he wants. (I'm assuming Biden is a Catholic in "good standing" at this time.)

        On the whole, I think it's good when a church enforces their doctorinal positions when members don't abide by them. I would hope the church would keep the enforcement towards the essentials and leave room for disagreement in non-essentials.
        "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

        "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
          I think I understand what you're trying to say...

          Remember, that joining a church is a voluntary act by the person. One would hope a person joining a church would take the time to understand the church's positions and decide he can abide by them. Certainly Biden was never forced to join the Catholic church and he's free to quit anytime he wants. (I'm assuming Biden is a Catholic in "good standing" at this time.)

          On the whole, I think it's good when a church enforces their doctorinal positions when members don't abide by them. I would hope the church would keep the enforcement towards the essentials and leave room for disagreement in non-essentials.
          He's not. It's a part of Catholic moral teaching that obtaining an abortion or materially cooperating in the acquisition of an abortion is a grave sin that puts you outside of the good standing category and into mortal sin requiring repentance and reconciliation. Obtaining an abortion actually puts a Catholic in a state of latae sententiae excommunication. Canon 1329 extends latae sententiae excommunication to persons who, without their acts, another person could not have committed a latae sententiae excommunication worthy offense. I'm not a canonist, but I am a law student, and I can definitely see where that may extend to politicians who advocate for pro-abortion policies (at least one source I found explicitly states that it does apply to anyone assisting in the procurement of an abortion, so we know the canon extends to the issue of abortion: https://www.catholiceducation.org/en...-abortion.html).

          "Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
          "I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay here and cause all kinds of trouble."
          Katniss Everdeen


          Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

          Comment


          • #20
            This is nothing new, folks. Here is an article from the NYT in 1990 about excommunication of politicians who take a pro-abortion stand.

            https://www.nytimes.com/1990/06/15/n...-abortion.html

            John Cardinal O'Connor warned Roman Catholic politicians yesterday that they risked being excommunicated from the Catholic Church if they were persistent in supporting a woman's right to abortion.

            ''For the common good,'' the Cardinal said, ''such Catholics must be warned that they are at risk of excommunication.''

            Those at risk, he said, are Catholics who ''are perceived not only as treating church teaching on abortion with contempt, but helping to mulitply abortions by advocating legislation supporting abortion or by making public funds available for abortion.''

            ''If such action persists,'' he said, ''bishops may consider excommunication the only option.''


            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              I "was Catholic" when I was a young man, because I was in love with a Catholic girl. I talked to the priest ahead of time, and we worked it out.
              This was a small Catholic church "out in the country", and the priest was a young man who I would describe as the Catholic version of the "Jesus people". (back in the 70's)

              When I told him I would have a hard time with communion because I didn't really believe that the wafer actually becomes the body of Christ, he kinda shrugged and said, "a lot of us don't either". Not sure who he meant by "us", but we agreed that when I received communion, following his "body of Christ?", my amen would signify, yes, that REPRESENTS the body of Christ.

              Remember - I was just a kid back then.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #22
                Advocating for the performance of abortions would disqualify someone for communion, no doubts bout it. But being "pro-choice" doesn't inherently mean that. Believing that abortion should be permitted is different from the idea that it should be performed.

                You may think that's not a real distinction, but there's no shortage of things that people consider immoral but still think that, for various reasons, should be legal. How many here would advocate that refusing to believe in Christianity be criminalized? And since we're talking about Catholics, Augustine and Aquinas believed there were merits to legalizing prostitution (Aquinas here approvingly quotes Augustine's "If you do away with harlots, the world will be convulsed with lust" remark) despite obviously considering prostitution to be immoral.

                So while I would find it questionable to withhold communion simply because of someone having a pro-choice stance (especially when we consider that in politics one may be forced to take positions they are not in full agreement with), if that "pro-choice" stance includes support of policies that encourage--not merely permit--abortion, that would not be unreasonable stance for withholding communion. I'm not familiar enough with Biden's stance on the subject to weigh in on whether he has crossed that or not.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Catholics are supposed to be pro-life; that's just how that works. Not all are, obviously, but not all Catholics follow their official teaching on contraception, either. In Catholic theology sin is graded, and abortion is always a grave sin. In all likelihood I think many Catholics would argue that abortion is fundamentally different from other sorts of legal sins in that it always takes a human life. It is a point of no return in a way that prostitution or drunkenness isn't.

                  Now, communion is not regularly denied to layfolk who have some sort of passive belief in legal abortion or who vote Democrat (Catholics also have a very rigorous understanding of your relation to the sin affecting the gravity of it). When it comes to politicians, however, bishops and priests are regularly criticized for not taking a hardline stance on their very prominent parishioners who are not only calling themselves pro-choice, but actively engaging politics that pushes forward more liberal abortion policies. Their degree of culpability is generally considered much greater than the average voter, and their visibility also projects an image.

                  Not to mention how far left Democratic abortion policies have gone in recent years. General Democratic policy is so far beyond "safe, legal, and rare" that it's becoming more and more normal to actively advocate free-for-all policy.

                  "Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
                  "I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay here and cause all kinds of trouble."
                  Katniss Everdeen


                  Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Good? Bad?
                    Biden should be excommunicated, but this is better than nothing.
                    Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                      this is an interesting issue...

                      should people be restricted from Christian practices due to their thoughts?

                      If you try to restrict people based on their ideas, then people may just be stifled from sharing what they think ... and then no others can teach such people more Christ-centered ideas (after someone has expressed bad doctrine).

                      I know I have worded this badly. People could bring up a lot of exceptions due to the way I worded this. Maybe someone will recognize what I am asking so that the concern can be expressed a bit better.

                      Part of the idea, in the Christian context, is that people are not supposed to be coerced into 'confessing' doctrines.
                      This is simply the libertarian instinct against restrictions in the abstract, because 'they can be abused'. Of course they can, but some restrictions are still necessary.
                      Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                        this is an interesting issue...

                        should people be restricted from Christian practices due to their thoughts?

                        If you try to restrict people based on their ideas, then people may just be stifled from sharing what they think ... and then no others can teach such people more Christ-centered ideas (after someone has expressed bad doctrine).

                        I know I have worded this badly. People could bring up a lot of exceptions due to the way I worded this. Maybe someone will recognize what I am asking so that the concern can be expressed a bit better.

                        Part of the idea, in the Christian context, is that people are not supposed to be coerced into 'confessing' doctrines.
                        Well, Paul kicked Hymenaeus and Alexander out of the church for "overthrowing the faith of others" by teaching heresy, and heresy is basically incorrect thought, so it's not inherently wrong. The idea that God does not exist is also a "thought",yet there are pastors in liberal denominations who have taught this as well.
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Good? Bad?
                          Its good. Showed backbone and its what's supposed to happen.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            Well, Paul kicked Hymenaeus and Alexander out of the church for "overthrowing the faith of others" by teaching heresy, and heresy is basically incorrect thought, so it's not inherently wrong. The idea that God does not exist is also a "thought",yet there are pastors in liberal denominations who have taught this as well.
                            And Paul himself was barred (albeit temporarily) from joining the Church at Jerusalem until Barnabas stepped up and vouched for him.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              And Paul himself was barred (albeit temporarily) from joining the Church at Jerusalem until Barnabas stepped up and vouched for him.
                              Well to be fair, Paul was a hand full!
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Well to be fair, Paul was a hand full!
                                Now THAT's an understatement!!!
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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