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Thread: In China, every day is Kristallnacht

  1. #11
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    Clamping down on missionaries is the runny edge of the egg...
    I'm being purposely evasive because Southern Baptists officially do not have 'missionaries' in China, due to China being a "closed country".

    What we do have is a large number of 'college professors' teaching English or professionals working in other positions who are in contact with local Christian pastors. They coordinate "house churches", and a very disturbing number of followers simply disappear.

    I'd hardly call that a "runny edge", but I also, having looked into this further, and consulting with my "son in the faith" who works directly for the International Mission Board, concede that the Muslim persecution is far worse than I had ever imagined.
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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I'm being purposely evasive because Southern Baptists officially do not have 'missionaries' in China, due to China being a "closed country".

    What we do have is a large number of 'college professors' teaching English or professionals working in other positions who are in contact with local Christian pastors. They coordinate "house churches", and a very disturbing number of followers simply disappear.

    I'd hardly call that a "runny edge", but I also, having looked into this further, and consulting with my "son in the faith" who works directly for the International Mission Board, concede that the Muslim persecution is far worse than I had ever imagined.
    I don't know, some of this may have to do with the 2014 Kunming attack by Uyghurs (supposedly).
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  3. #13
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I'm being purposely evasive because Southern Baptists officially do not have 'missionaries' in China, due to China being a "closed country".
    That was obvious.

    What we do have is a large number of 'college professors' teaching English or professionals working in other positions who are in contact with local Christian pastors. They coordinate "house churches", and a very disturbing number of followers simply disappear.
    That wasn't. Thanks.

    That's very disturbing, not least because you can't really know whether someone has "disappeared," of their own volition, or "was disappeared," by the state, and you're left calculating statistics, asking if "this number" says "that disappearance" was involuntary.

    I'd hardly call that a "runny edge", but I also, having looked into this further, and consulting with my "son in the faith" who works directly for the International Mission Board, concede that the Muslim persecution is far worse than I had ever imagined.
    I hesitated to even post the issue here, because there are bound to be folks who think tearing down mosques, especially those newly constructed, or even under construction, is no more than just deserts. Especially with populations closely aligned with the 'stans, where vastly worse outrages have been committed against world cultural heritage sites.

    The pictures of bulldozed cemeteries was my personal tipping point.

    Now.

    2019-11-04_08-13-08.jpg
    Satellite images via Google Earth.

    And then.

    2019-11-04_08-12-40.jpg
    The site of Sultanim cemetery in Hotan, Xinjiang, in December, 2018 and March 2019.

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    This is happening to Christians also, to a lesser degree...

    In China, they’re closing churches, jailing pastors – and even rewriting scripture

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nslation-bible
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  5. #15
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    That's very disturbing, not least because you can't really know whether someone has "disappeared," of their own volition, or "was disappeared," by the state, and you're left calculating statistics, asking if "this number" says "that disappearance" was involuntary.
    Our IMB "associates" work with local pastors and lay people. The "disappeared" factor is compounded by the fact that, when the local pastor goes to check on the missing, there will be a new family living in the house or apartment, and the new family will be very much pro-government.

    I hesitated to even post the issue here, because there are bound to be folks who think tearing down mosques, especially those newly constructed, or even under construction, is no more than just deserts. Especially with populations closely aligned with the 'stans, where vastly worse outrages have been committed against world cultural heritage sites.
    Yeah, long ago I came to terms with "religious persecution is religious persecution", and I take no comfort in it happening to "them" to a greater deal than to "us".

    The pictures of bulldozed cemeteries was my personal tipping point.
    I get the importance of cemeteries - I really do. When we were on a mission trip to Poland years ago, we spent two days cleaning out the local Jewish cemetery, which had become overrun with weeds and overgrowth - tombstones and markers had been knocked over and or/broken. A local had told us of the importance of the Jewish cemetery to the Jews, but they are not allowed to be 'among the dead'. We would be clearing the cemetery and uprighting makers and tombstones, and a crowd would form to watch us.

    At the end of the first day, as we were leaving the cemetery, an old Polish Jewish woman grabbed me and hugged me and just held onto me weeping.

    So, yeah, that's quite sobering.
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    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I don't know, some of this may have to do with the 2014 Kunming attack by Uyghurs (supposedly).
    This has been ongoing for decades and decades, but kept low grade for most of the period due to pressure from the U.S. and bad publicity from their earlier campaign in Tibet.

    After 9/11, China was given a green light, and this is where they've come to since.

    It's absurdly difficult to get a reporter into the region. China won't allow it at all, except for Potemkin visits, but it's just barely possible to come in from Kazakhstan to the north or from Kashmir to the south. Even then, a westerner would stand out, so it's necessary to recruit locals, putting them at significant risk, and we still can't get their reports until they've made it back out of the country.

    That's where much of Sintash's on-the-ground reports have come from, which is why he knew where to look in the satellite pics from google earth.

    And similarly for reports from organizations like Human Rights Watch.

  8. #17
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    This is happening to Christians also, to a lesser degree...

    In China, they’re closing churches, jailing pastors – and even rewriting scripture

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nslation-bible
    Not to mention the outright slaughter of Christians that is happening all across the Middle East.
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  9. #18
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    That is why I'm a protectionist...
    So you're not a pure capitalist. Pure capitalism just wants $$$, in the light of the billions is it surprising that trade with China continues?

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I don't know, some of this may have to do with the 2014 Kunming attack by Uyghurs (supposedly).
    If you think about it, is it really surprising that China is dealing with the threat of extremic Islam in this way?
    Trump is basically "Bruce Wayne pretending to be a foppish retarded billionaire" tier genius, in case nerds need a simpler metaphor.

  10. #19
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I'm being purposely evasive because Southern Baptists officially do not have 'missionaries' in China, due to China being a "closed country".

    What we do have is a large number of 'college professors' teaching English or professionals working in other positions who are in contact with local Christian pastors. They coordinate "house churches", and a very disturbing number of followers simply disappear.
    China famously wants to screen foreign influence, and trying to go around their backs like this gets an unsurprising reaction.
    Trump is basically "Bruce Wayne pretending to be a foppish retarded billionaire" tier genius, in case nerds need a simpler metaphor.

  11. #20
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post

    Xinjiang is around 20 million; it's a semi-autonomous region tucked up against the 'stans.
    Especially with populations closely aligned with the 'stans, where vastly worse outrages have been committed against world cultural heritage sites.
    Xinjiang is probably crawling with jihadis, or would be if not for the crackdown.
    Trump is basically "Bruce Wayne pretending to be a foppish retarded billionaire" tier genius, in case nerds need a simpler metaphor.

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