Originally posted by carbon dioxide
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Look! It's a bird, no it's a plane, no it's a bicycle built for two!
This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the LDS - Mormons. This forum is generally for theists only, and is generaly not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theists may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.
Due to the sensitive nature of the LDS Temple Ceremonies to our LDS posters, we do not allow posting exact text of the temple rituals, articles describing older versions of the ceremony, or links that provide the same information. However discussion of generalities of the ceremony are not off limits. If in doubt, PM the area mod or an Admin
Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Forum Rules: Here
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Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostHow do you have a class on it? Easy. One opens say "The Changing Word of Mormonism" Chapter 1. Starts reading it paragraph by paragraph and commenting on it and responding to the claims.
How would I begin a lesson from your example. Line upon line, precept on precept.
First start with the issue of polygamy. That there are times when God commands it and times that God does not.
Show that violations to commandments do contain consequences. The scriptures often use words like "perish" and "damned" for those who do not repent and follow God.
Perhaps words like "perish" and "damned" are nicer than words like "destroy" to you.
God gives all people agency to choose to live his commandments but he does not give people the choice to avoid any punishment that will eventually come by disobedience. Emma was not threatened with being stoned, beheaded, or even physically killed or tortured.
But failure to obey the commandments would risk her being "destroyed", "damned", "perished" whatever word you prefer to show an eternal consequence.
The fact that you're defending this amazing.
BUT -- you did give it an attempt!The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostPerhaps consult with LDS people beforehand to make sure what they are claiming is in the ball park of what Mormons actually believe. There actually may be an actual difference between what you believe Mormons believe and what Mormons themselves actually believe.
If your views of what Mormons believe and my views of what Mormons believe actually match each other, we will have very few disagreements on anything.
You believe Joseph Smith was a real prophet - I believe he was a fraud.
You believe the BoM is true - I think it's a fabrication of Smith.
And that's just the beginning.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostI don't doubt that these anti-Mormons think they have good motives. These people however spend more time telling people why they are wrong than why they are right.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostMost of us have heard this line of "rationale" before, so we use FairMoron and LDS.org as sources. Are they "official" enough for you?
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Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostFair and LDS.org and other places are fine.
By the way, my comments are not addressed to you. They are addressed to the people I was describe earlier.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThere are several buildings on post where I work that are being replaced. They are getting completely torn down and the ground re-leveled before the new building even gets built. That is what we are dealing with when we deal with Mormons. The entire building must be completely dismantled and the foundation built after demolition. There is a process. It is not simply a redecoration of the interior, it is a complete reconstruction effort.
Mormons know their faith. So regardless of a person's motives, if they start making misrepresentations against Mormons, they will detect it fairly easily. Consider the following example that I had a number of years ago in a Yahoo Christian Chat room
"MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they believe Jesus had at least three wives and children while he was on this earth." (Christian Chatter in Yahoo Christian Chat Room 3 on 10/10/05 at Approx. 0940 A.M.)
Now any person who knows the LDS faith that is is a load of crap. It is true that a few LDS leaders a number of years ago held to this position BUT this was never made doctrine.
"The belief that Christ was married has never been official church doctrine. It is neither sanctioned nor taught by the church. While it is true that a few church leaders in the mid-1800s expressed their opinions on the matter, it was not then, and is not now, church doctrine." (Dale Bills LDS Church Spokesman "LDS do not endorse claims in 'Da Vinci'," Deseret News, 17 May 2006)
I personally don't know any Mormons that hold to the view by the guy in Yahoo chat In my experience there are 4 categories that exist
1. Some do not believe Jesus had a wife during his time on earth
2. Some believe he had one wife.
3. Some believe he had more than one
4. Most really have no opinion on the subject. They worry about more important things than speculating on an issue that has not been revealed by revelation.
So when somebody says ""MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they believe..." and the fact is Mormons do not believe what is being claimed, what should I do with that man? Should I respect him and think he is credible when he does not have a clue or just dismiss him? Its sort of a dangerous game to tell another person what their religion teaches. I always assume they know their religion better than I do.Last edited by carbon dioxide; 06-06-2014, 09:08 PM.
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Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostSince you invoked a business type analogy, I will offer one as well. My family has been a long time owners of Honda cars. Both my immediate and extended family have owned a number of them. We find their cars to be great cars. Never have had any problem with them. Now suppose am shopping for a car and some salesman wants me to buy a car. I tell him I like Honda cars. He starts bashing the Honda brand about this and that about how they are not reliable and bad cars. At that point the conversation is done. I know that Honda cars are overall good cars and I am not going to listen to him bash a brand of car I have been satisfied with for many years. I know from my experience that what he is saying is wrong. Why should I trust him on anything else when he falsely accused Honda cars being bad when I know they are good. I think a good rule of a salesman is don't bash or insult the intelligence of the customer assuming that the salesman knows the subject matter better than the customer. When the salesman dismisses the views of the customer and proceeds to lecture the customer on what he things is right, the salesman loses his customer.
Which of us are you accusing of being dishonest?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostSo when somebody says ""MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that they believe..." and the fact is Mormons do not believe what is being claimed, what should I do with that man? Should I respect him and think he is credible when he does not have a clue or just dismiss him? Its sort of a dangerous game to tell another person what their religion teaches. I always assume they know their religion better than I do.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostMormons know their faith.
They never do.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThat's a terrible analogy. You indicate that the salesman is bashing Hondas just to make a sale. That's dishonest.
Which of us are you accusing of being dishonest?
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Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostI did not say the salesman in the analogy was dishonest. He may very well believe what is he saying it true. But he is woefully misinformed. Once again, all my comments int his thread have not be directed at any poster in theology web. I am speaking in general terms outside of my experience of this message board.
So, you tell me all your happy Honda stories, but I know how to use Google. So I look up Honda Reviews, and I find tons of reviews from disgruntled Honda owners. Realizing ANYBODY can post reviews, I decide to dig deeper, and look at Honda's own website. There, I find all kinds of conflicting information, including attempts to dispel the criticism using really silly arguments.
Now, I can write that all off, because YOU tell me I should trust you, or I can realize I might be better off with a Toyota.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostMy experience with your Mormon "missionaries" over the past 40 years has proven to me that they really don't know WHAT they believe. OR, they don't feel the freedom to admit it, when asked about it. They often look at each other, shrug, and tell me they'll bring an elder back with them.
They never do.
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