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Thread: Sondland admits quid pro quo

  1. #131
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Open hearings begin next week.
    Yeah, so maybe ff is using a double negative or something - I was under the impression "it's on".
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  2. #132
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtfloor View Post
    Virginia Heffernan spoke to Ross Garber on Trumpcast. I wonder if Pelosi might not do impeachment after all. it looks like Trump could get off if he handles Rudy the right way.
    You say this like it isn't a foregone conclusion. Of course Pelosi is going to "do impeachment". That was the plan from day one when Democrats took control of the House in 2018. The only reason she has feigned hesitation is because of unexpectedly losing seats in the Senate which really upset their plans, because otherwise there is no doubt in my mind that they would have voted for impeachment and removal from office on the first day Congress was back in session in early 2019.

    Plan B, of course, was to keep the sham "inquiry" going late into 2020 in order to tip the scales against Trump during the general election, but with Barr and Durham getting ready to open a can of you-know-what, the Democrats have had to put impeachment on the fast-track. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out, but chances are good that low-info sky-screamers like you are going to be bitterly disappointed yet again.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  3. #133
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    So, you'd go so far as to say that the Special Prosecutor is so corrupt that they are forcing witnesses to lie about the President of the U.S.? And no, people don't do it all the time, occassionally, naive people without lawyers are pressured into pleading guilty to crimes they didn't commit, not innocent people with great lawyers. Cohen pleaded guilty because he was obviously guilty, and he implicated Trump because there's a recording of him and Trump discussing the scheme.
    As this article points out, Jim, it happens far more than you'd imagine...

    Criminally Yours: Lying To Get To The Truth

    Why would someone ever admit to a crime he didn't commit? How could anyone be so naive or stupid? But not only does it happen, it happens more frequently than you would imagine. Why?

    A hot topic in criminal law is “false confessions.” Why would someone ever admit to a crime he didn’t commit? How could anyone be so naive or stupid?

    But not only does it happen, it happens more frequently than you would imagine. Why?

    In large part because it’s legal for police to tell suspects the boldest lies in order to wrangle a confession from them. Among the most common lies are:

    – “We’ve got you on video doing the crime, so you might as well admit it.”

    – “This is only a small case, just say you did it and you’ll get a drug program.”


    and...

    The only way psychological gamesmanship might be disapproved by the court is if it’s so egregious as to offend “the notion of fundamental fairness.” But boy, is that a big hurdle.

    Take the case of Matthew Thomas. Police lied to him in a manner so egregious, even John McCain would have cracked. Thomas was accused of killing his four-month-old son. After being interrogated for more than nine hours, he was told that if he didn’t admit to doing the crime, his wife would be arrested for it and dragged from the baby’s hospital bedside because “one of them had to have done it.” They told him the baby was still alive, and that his information would save the child’s life. Another lie — the baby was already dead. They told him they were sure it was an accident, and if he just admitted it, he could go home. Right.

    The trial judge found that the confession was not only voluntary, but that defense counsel had no right to put on an expert in police interrogation techniques to speak about the phenomenon of false confessions.

    Police fed Thomas information about how they believed the death occurred then prodded him to parrot it back.


    I was taught in basic police school this "it's ok to lie to get a confession" -- I never felt comfortable with that, but, yeah - it happens FAR more than you'd ever imagine.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  4. #134
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Yeah, so maybe ff is using a double negative or something - I was under the impression "it's on".
    Maybe he of the opinion that Impeachment doesn't beging until after the testimony and articles are filed. Could be, I don't know, but i'm sure they'll be filed anyway. What the so far unscrupulous Republican majority Senate will do with that is another question. But ultimately it will come down to the people after they understand the issues. They will either force their Senators to vote one way or the other, or they will decide innocence or guilt for themselves in the election.

  5. #135
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Maybe he of the opinion that Impeachment doesn't beging until after the testimony and articles are filed. Could be, I don't know, but i'm sure they'll be filed anyway. What the so far unscrupulous Republican majority Senate will do with that is another question. But ultimately it will come down to the people after they understand the issues. They will either force their Senators to vote one way or the other, or they will decide innocence or guilt for themselves in the election.
    So, the Senate is only 'scrupulous' if they convict? Can we see the testimony under oath, subject to cross-examination first, please?

    But, yes, you're pretty much admitting this is all political, like I stated before - it's a "show trial", the ultimate outcome of which will probably be the way people vote in an upcoming election.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  6. Amen Teallaura amen'd this post.
  7. #136
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    As this article points out, Jim, it happens far more than you'd imagine...

    Criminally Yours: Lying To Get To The Truth

    Why would someone ever admit to a crime he didn't commit? How could anyone be so naive or stupid? But not only does it happen, it happens more frequently than you would imagine. Why?

    A hot topic in criminal law is “false confessions.” Why would someone ever admit to a crime he didn’t commit? How could anyone be so naive or stupid?

    But not only does it happen, it happens more frequently than you would imagine. Why?

    In large part because it’s legal for police to tell suspects the boldest lies in order to wrangle a confession from them. Among the most common lies are:

    – “We’ve got you on video doing the crime, so you might as well admit it.”

    – “This is only a small case, just say you did it and you’ll get a drug program.”


    and...

    The only way psychological gamesmanship might be disapproved by the court is if it’s so egregious as to offend “the notion of fundamental fairness.” But boy, is that a big hurdle.

    Take the case of Matthew Thomas. Police lied to him in a manner so egregious, even John McCain would have cracked. Thomas was accused of killing his four-month-old son. After being interrogated for more than nine hours, he was told that if he didn’t admit to doing the crime, his wife would be arrested for it and dragged from the baby’s hospital bedside because “one of them had to have done it.” They told him the baby was still alive, and that his information would save the child’s life. Another lie — the baby was already dead. They told him they were sure it was an accident, and if he just admitted it, he could go home. Right.

    The trial judge found that the confession was not only voluntary, but that defense counsel had no right to put on an expert in police interrogation techniques to speak about the phenomenon of false confessions.

    Police fed Thomas information about how they believed the death occurred then prodded him to parrot it back.


    I was taught in basic police school this "it's ok to lie to get a confession" -- I never felt comfortable with that, but, yeah - it happens FAR more than you'd ever imagine.
    They obviously did that to a naive person without a lawyer present. Cohen is a lawyer himself, and was also represented by a team of lawyers.

  8. #137
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I was taught in basic police school this "it's ok to lie to get a confession" -- I never felt comfortable with that, but, yeah - it happens FAR more than you'd ever imagine.
    I covered a story once where a guy was falsely accused of stealing $100 from a convenience store. First of all, the police had the store clerk identify the "suspect" based on a low-quality photocopy of his drivers license, which was sketchy enough, but once they had him in questioning, the police really leaned on him and told him things like, "Look, man, the store owner doesn't want the hassle of a trial, and frankly neither do we, so if you just give us the money you stole, we'll close the investigation, and you'll be free to go." He said he was really tempted to go along with it because he just wanted out of there, but he was savvy enough not to fall for it, and eventually the police were forced to admit that it was case of "misidentification". Of course then the poor guy still had an arrest on his record and was fighting to have it expunged, which the city was curiously reluctant to do.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  9. Amen Teallaura amen'd this post.
  10. #138
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    So, the Senate is only 'scrupulous' if they convict?
    No, they have shown themselves to be pretty unscupulous regardless, which was my point.


    Can we see the testimony under oath, subject to cross-examination first, please?
    Can't wait, although much of it is already been out there for your consumption.
    But, yes, you're pretty much admitting this is all political, like I stated before - it's a "show trial", the ultimate outcome of which will probably be the way people vote in an upcoming election.
    No, it is not a "show trial" by which I assume you to mean "not legit".

  11. #139
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLamebrain View Post
    They obviously did that to a naive person without a lawyer present. Cohen is a lawyer himself, and was also represented by a team of lawyers.
    Yep, and the prosecutors made him an offer: confess to a crime you didn't commit so we have something to use against Trump, and we'll give you a lighter sentence on the crimes you did commit.

    Why wouldn't he have taken that deal? He had nothing to lose.
    Last edited by Mountain Man; 11-08-2019 at 09:43 AM.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  12. #140
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    They obviously did that to a naive person without a lawyer present. Cohen is a lawyer himself, and was also represented by a team of lawyers.
    That was only one example, Jim. I've personally been involved in cases where the accused swears he is innocent, but the lawyer talks him into "taking a deal" because of the tremendous expense of a trial, and the possibility that the jury will convict anyway.

    It's not at all unusual for a lawyer to convince his client "you MIGHT be found not guilty, but if you plead to this misdemeanor, I can pretty well guaranty no jail time and only probation and community service" as opposed to doing 15 years in prison if you happen to lose. It literally happens all the time, Jim.
    Every problem is the result of a previous solution.

  13. Amen Teallaura amen'd this post.

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