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Thread: Trump Derangement Is Destroying Political Analysis

  1. #121
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watermelon View Post
    That was in response to the poster ridiculing the fact that hearsay could even be considered legitimate evidence.

    This isnít a judicial process so itís ridiculous to expect adherence to the rules of evidence especially while thinking the other side doesnít have to play by the same rules. Thatís why the Supreme Court held that rules of evidence including hearsay donít apply in grand jury proceedings. They donít apply in any proceedings without judicial power.

    This whole hearsay defence isnít valid and only used by people that either donít understand the process or have no substantial defence to the claims. In Trumps case, Iím pretty sure he doesnít understand much of anything and his followers seem to just take whatever he tweets as gospel. Thatís how we get to things like Nunes opening statement...

    In any case Iím going to try and see if any hearsay exceptions could potentially apply to any claims made yesterday after work. I enjoyed doing these exercises at uni but I donít work in criminal law so Iíll have to brush up on it.
    No, they don't.

    It's a political process with judicial overtones - and the Dems are grossly underestimating how seriously Americans take Due Process and the procedural fairness it implies. Can get away with it legally isn't the same as can get away with it politically.

    But the hearsay issue has more to do with the quality of the evidence - which is another political pitfall here. Hearsay won't cut the political mustard - hence the closed hearings until the protests got a bit too loud.

  2. #122
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Oh please enlighten us and tell us exactly how the case for impeachment was advanced by yesterday's hearings.

    Personally I find it telling that the impeachment wasn't even the lead story for much of the MSM today. It looks like they lost a whole lot of interest in the story that they were incessantly covering right up to yesterday. I wonder why.
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  4. #123
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Nope - it's crap. Aide boy can only testify to hearsay if they even call him. Kevin Bacon is more connected to Trump than 'my aide said he overheard Sondland's side of the conversation'.
    The "witnesses" could hardly be called witnesses. In one case there was something like four degrees of separation. George Kent said that he believed that there was quid pro quo because he heard it from William Taylor who heard it from Tim Morrison (who has denied Taylor's claim), who heard it from Sondland. And where did Sondland get it? He presumed that there was a quid pro quo despite Trump having explicitly told him that he wanted nothing in exchange and that there was no quid pro quo.

    That's real solid evidence that the TDS crowd is hanging their hat on.

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  6. #124
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    No, they don't.

    It's a political process with judicial overtones - and the Dems are grossly underestimating how seriously Americans take Due Process and the procedural fairness it implies. Can get away with it legally isn't the same as can get away with it politically.

    But the hearsay issue has more to do with the quality of the evidence - which is another political pitfall here. Hearsay won't cut the political mustard - hence the closed hearings until the protests got a bit too loud.
    Moreover they are relating what amounts to double and triple hearsay. Like the old REO Speedwagon song puts it:


    Heard it from a friend who
    Heard it from a friend who
    Heard it from another...

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
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  8. #125
    tWebber
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    How was the theatre today? Are we expecting the TDS to finally return to sanity after this nothingburger blows over, or will the Fake News spin up more BS for them to consume?
    Trump is basically "Bruce Wayne pretending to be a foppish retarded billionaire" tier genius, in case nerds need a simpler metaphor.

  9. #126
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Nope - it's crap. Aide boy can only testify to hearsay if they even call him. Kevin Bacon is more connected to Trump than 'my aide said he overheard Sondland's side of the conversation'.
    Sigh.

    If Taylor testifies that his aide heard Trump and Sondland talking about Ukraine investigations, that's hearsay.

    If the aid testifies that he heard Trump and Sondland talking about Ukraine investigations, that's not hearsay.
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  10. #127
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignorant Roy View Post
    Sigh.

    If Taylor testifies that his aide heard Trump and Sondland talking about Ukraine investigations, that's hearsay.

    If the aid testifies that he heard Trump and Sondland talking about Ukraine investigations, that's not hearsay.
    The issue is not what Sondland said but what Trump himself said, if the aide testifies that Trump was unusually interested in investigating the Bidens based on Sondland's say-so, or based on hearing only Sondland's half of a phonecall, then that is inadmissible hearsay.

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  12. #128
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    Sigh.

    If Taylor testifies that his aide heard Trump and Sondland talking about Ukraine investigations, that's hearsay.

    If the aid testifies that he heard Trump and Sondland talking about Ukraine investigations, that's not hearsay.
    Is it alleged that the aide heard both sides of the conversation - as in being present with both parties, or, in the case of a phone call, on speaker phone?
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  13. #129
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    The issue is not what Sondland said but what Trump himself said, if the aide testifies that Trump was unusually interested in investigating the Bidens based on Sondland's say-so, or based on hearing only Sondland's half of a phonecall, then that is inadmissible hearsay.
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  15. #130
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    Sigh.

    If Taylor testifies that his aide heard Trump and Sondland talking about Ukraine investigations, that's hearsay.

    If the aid testifies that he heard Trump and Sondland talking about Ukraine investigations, that's not hearsay.
    Granted, Taylor's testimony is hearsay.

    So is the aide's (assuming he testifies as Taylor indicated) with regard to Trump. He overheard the call - he wasn't on the line - he can only testify to what he heard of Sondland's side. Beyond that it is what Sondland told him about what Trump may or may not have said and it's hearsay.

    Basically, everything they need - direct connection to Trump showing motive - is either nonexistent or crap.

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