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Trump Derangement Is Destroying Political Analysis

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  • Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
    That was in response to the poster ridiculing the fact that hearsay could even be considered legitimate evidence.

    This isn’t a judicial process so it’s ridiculous to expect adherence to the rules of evidence especially while thinking the other side doesn’t have to play by the same rules. That’s why the Supreme Court held that rules of evidence including hearsay don’t apply in grand jury proceedings. They don’t apply in any proceedings without judicial power.

    This whole hearsay defence isn’t valid and only used by people that either don’t understand the process or have no substantial defence to the claims. In Trumps case, I’m pretty sure he doesn’t understand much of anything and his followers seem to just take whatever he tweets as gospel. That’s how we get to things like Nunes opening statement...

    In any case I’m going to try and see if any hearsay exceptions could potentially apply to any claims made yesterday after work. I enjoyed doing these exercises at uni but I don’t work in criminal law so I’ll have to brush up on it.
    No, they don't.

    It's a political process with judicial overtones - and the Dems are grossly underestimating how seriously Americans take Due Process and the procedural fairness it implies. Can get away with it legally isn't the same as can get away with it politically.

    But the hearsay issue has more to do with the quality of the evidence - which is another political pitfall here. Hearsay won't cut the political mustard - hence the closed hearings until the protests got a bit too loud.
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    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Oh please enlighten us and tell us exactly how the case for impeachment was advanced by yesterday's hearings.

      Personally I find it telling that the impeachment wasn't even the lead story for much of the MSM today. It looks like they lost a whole lot of interest in the story that they were incessantly covering right up to yesterday. I wonder why.
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      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
        Nope - it's crap. Aide boy can only testify to hearsay if they even call him. Kevin Bacon is more connected to Trump than 'my aide said he overheard Sondland's side of the conversation'.
        The "witnesses" could hardly be called witnesses. In one case there was something like four degrees of separation. George Kent said that he believed that there was quid pro quo because he heard it from William Taylor who heard it from Tim Morrison (who has denied Taylor's claim), who heard it from Sondland. And where did Sondland get it? He presumed that there was a quid pro quo despite Trump having explicitly told him that he wanted nothing in exchange and that there was no quid pro quo.

        That's real solid evidence that the TDS crowd is hanging their hat on.

        I'm always still in trouble again

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        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          No, they don't.

          It's a political process with judicial overtones - and the Dems are grossly underestimating how seriously Americans take Due Process and the procedural fairness it implies. Can get away with it legally isn't the same as can get away with it politically.

          But the hearsay issue has more to do with the quality of the evidence - which is another political pitfall here. Hearsay won't cut the political mustard - hence the closed hearings until the protests got a bit too loud.
          Moreover they are relating what amounts to double and triple hearsay. Like the old REO Speedwagon song puts it:


          Heard it from a friend who
          Heard it from a friend who
          Heard it from another...

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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          • How was the theatre today? Are we expecting the TDS to finally return to sanity after this nothingburger blows over, or will the Fake News spin up more BS for them to consume?
            Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

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            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              Nope - it's crap. Aide boy can only testify to hearsay if they even call him. Kevin Bacon is more connected to Trump than 'my aide said he overheard Sondland's side of the conversation'.
              Sigh.

              If Taylor testifies that his aide heard Trump and Sondland talking about Ukraine investigations, that's hearsay.

              If the aid testifies that he heard Trump and Sondland talking about Ukraine investigations, that's not hearsay.
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              • Originally posted by Ignorant Roy View Post
                Sigh.

                If Taylor testifies that his aide heard Trump and Sondland talking about Ukraine investigations, that's hearsay.

                If the aid testifies that he heard Trump and Sondland talking about Ukraine investigations, that's not hearsay.
                The issue is not what Sondland said but what Trump himself said, if the aide testifies that Trump was unusually interested in investigating the Bidens based on Sondland's say-so, or based on hearing only Sondland's half of a phonecall, then that is inadmissible hearsay.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


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                • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                  Sigh.

                  If Taylor testifies that his aide heard Trump and Sondland talking about Ukraine investigations, that's hearsay.

                  If the aid testifies that he heard Trump and Sondland talking about Ukraine investigations, that's not hearsay.
                  Is it alleged that the aide heard both sides of the conversation - as in being present with both parties, or, in the case of a phone call, on speaker phone?
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    The issue is not what Sondland said but what Trump himself said, if the aide testifies that Trump was unusually interested in investigating the Bidens based on Sondland's say-so, or based on hearing only Sondland's half of a phonecall, then that is inadmissible hearsay.
                    "Inadmissible" to Schiff is like "is" is to Big Dog Bill Clinton.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                    • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                      Sigh.

                      If Taylor testifies that his aide heard Trump and Sondland talking about Ukraine investigations, that's hearsay.

                      If the aid testifies that he heard Trump and Sondland talking about Ukraine investigations, that's not hearsay.
                      Granted, Taylor's testimony is hearsay.

                      So is the aide's (assuming he testifies as Taylor indicated) with regard to Trump. He overheard the call - he wasn't on the line - he can only testify to what he heard of Sondland's side. Beyond that it is what Sondland told him about what Trump may or may not have said and it's hearsay.

                      Basically, everything they need - direct connection to Trump showing motive - is either nonexistent or crap.
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Is it alleged that the aide heard both sides of the conversation - as in being present with both parties, or, in the case of a phone call, on speaker phone?
                        My understanding is the aide supposedly overheard Sondland's side only.
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Quill Sword

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                        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          My understanding is the aide supposedly overheard Sondland's side only.
                          Me, as well.... I hadn't heard, for example, that the conversation might have been on speaker, which would be highly unlikely.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                          • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                            My understanding is the aide supposedly overheard Sondland's side only.
                            I've just watched the BBC's highlights. Taylor said that his aide could hear both sides of the conversation:

                            "Ambassador Sondland called President Trump and told him of his meetings in Kiev. A member of my staff could hear President Trump on the phone asking Ambassador Sondland about the investigations".

                            The idea that only Sondland's words were audible appears to be an invention.
                            Last edited by Roy; 11-15-2019, 08:47 AM.
                            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

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                            • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                              I've just watched the BBC's highlights. Taylor said that his aide could hear both sides of the conversation:

                              "Ambassador Sondland called President Trump and told him of his meetings in Kiev. A member of my staff could hear President Trump on the phone asking Ambassador Sondland about the investigations".

                              The idea that only Sondland's words were audible appears to be an invention.
                              That Morrison wasn't on the call is what I recall - this doesn't dispute that but might mean some of his testimony wouldn't be hearsay (proving it was Trump could be fun).

                              Can't find it in transcript... PDFs!
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                That Morrison wasn't on the call is what I recall - this doesn't dispute that but might mean some of his testimony wouldn't be hearsay (proving it was Trump could be fun).

                                Can't find it in transcript... PDFs!
                                It's not only one member, but apparently two members of Taylors staff were there and overheard both sides of the conversation.

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