Originally posted by Mountain Man
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostI'll go with the two people that resigned. People don't resign their jobs because on the off chance is wasn't ok. They resign because they are convinced the thing was flat out wrong/illegal and they have a conscience.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by whag View PostI love how when the narrative changes, you go googling for a rag that supports the new narrative. I this case now you’re relying on this dopey opinion piece rather than the people who have firsthand experience with foreign policy.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostAll that proves is that they happened to disagree with Trump's decision. So what?
To disagree with Trump means one thing when the disagreement is over how to use the legal powers of the presidency, and quite another when he wants to do that which is illegal.
This is a problem many advising the president have run into and many of them had to resign over it.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI love how you went off on a genetic fallacy instead of engaging the argument.
Nothing wrong with saying a house cat is not such a good choice for home defense because he is a house cat.Last edited by oxmixmudd; 12-05-2019, 05:11 PM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostNo - what it shows is that the hold was an egregious breach of policy relative to such funds. So much so that at least one person was forced out and replaced with a Trump loyalist. And given the testimony from OMB, others resigned because they believed it was actually an illegal act.
To disagree with Trump means one thing when the disagreement is over how to use the legal powers of the presidency, and quite another when he wants to do that which is illegal.
This is a problem many advising the president have run into and many of them had to resign over it.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostIf the president is considering deferal or recension but has not yet made a decision, then he can temporarily put the distribution of funds on hold without informing Congress provided the hold does not extend past the end of the fiscal year, which in this case it didn't.
http://dailytorch.com/2019/11/the-pr...or-rescission/
Okay, just read it. That was some nifty spin there I tell ya. "The wording isn't explicit, it needs go through the courts, therefore the President is well within his rights (under his interpretation) to withhold the appropriated funds." As Joe Biden would say, malarkey! And it still doesn't explain why he put a hold the funds without going to Congress in the first place, or why he released them when he did. What was the reason for the withholding, and what changed allowing their release. Well, it's obvious what changed, Congressional investigations into the withholding of the funds is what changed.Last edited by JimL; 12-05-2019, 05:59 PM.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostSondland was grilled during the hearing, and he consistently said that he was acting on his own presumption and not on any direct orders from the President.
Regarding the aid being withheld, yes, they need something more than the mere act of the aid being withheld to prove their case that a crime was committed, because withholding aid is not a crime in and of itself. Something like a memo, or an email, or a firsthand witness who received an order directly from the President. Until you have that, then the act of aid being withheld is not evidence of a crime.
I blame shift all the time, if a director of a company withdrawals money and can’t account for it, we don’t have to prove it was due to wrong doing we make the allegation and the director has to prove otherwise. A common one is if a company trades while insolvent then its automatically presumed the director/s are liable unless they prove otherwise.
Likewise if the allegation is that the aid was withheld for personal benefit and there is no explanation from Trump then you should be able to hold that presumption as truth until a coherent defense is made.
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Originally posted by Watermelon View PostLook up what a rebuttable presumption means in the legal dictionary. If you claim a certain act ,even if it the act in itself is legal, was done to facilitate an illegal act then it shifts the burden of proof to the defendant to claim otherwise.
I blame shift all the time, if a director of a company withdrawals money and can’t account for it, we don’t have to prove it was due to wrong doing we make the allegation and the director has to prove otherwise. A common one is if a company trades while insolvent then its automatically presumed the director/s are liable unless they prove otherwise.
Likewise if the allegation is that the aid was withheld for personal benefit and there is no explanation from Trump then you should be able to hold that presumption as truth until a coherent defense is made.
Besides, legal precedent says that a president can withhold funds without alerting Congress if he is in the process of considering whether to defer or rescind those funds provided they are not held beyond the end of the fiscal year, and at least two reasons why Trump might take such an action were revealed during the hearings: 1) That Trump was concerned about ongoing corruption in the Ukraine; and 2) That he was concerned that other countries weren't offering equitable support.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostIt doesn't work like that at all. Otherwise you turn the presumption of innocence on its head. Prosecutors have to prove their accusations; it's not up to the defendant to disprove them.
Besides, legal precedent says that a president can withhold funds without alerting Congress if he is in the process of considering whether to defer or rescind those funds provided they are not held beyond the end of the fiscal year, and at least two reasons why Trump might take such an action were revealed during the hearings:
1) That Trump was concerned about ongoing corruption in the Ukraine; and 2)
That he was concerned that other countries weren't offering equitable support.
These are what are called made up excuses after being caught in the act.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostProsecutors have to prove their accussations with a preponderance of the evidence,....The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by JimLamebrain View PostProsecutors have to prove their accussations with a preponderance of the evidence...
You guys also seem to think that "preponderance of evidence" is simply a matter of quantity, but it's the quality of evidence that matters. You could have a dozen shady witnesses (or witnesses promulgating rumors and hearsay) all claiming "He did it!", and it wouldn't qualify as a preponderance of evidence.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThat all depends on the venue, Jim. The "standards of evidence" are "substantial evidence", "preponderance of evidence", "clear and convincing evidence" and "beyond a reasonable doubt".
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThat's basically semantics, they all amount to the same thing.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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