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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostIf they knew then it was because they figured it out on their own and not because Trump instructed anybody to tell them. Multiple witnesses testified that they were never told that release of the aid was tied to the investigations, and Sondland testified that Trump told him explicitly that he didn't want any reciprocation from Ukraine.
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Originally posted by JimLamebrain View PostSondland also said that there was a quid pro quo and that everyone was in on it.
[Sondland] said he did not know why the aid was delayed but "presumed" it was contingent on a public statement...
[...]
On September 9, Bill Taylor, the top U.S. diplomat in Ukraine, sent a message to Sondland questioning whether the U.S. was withholding aid to get Ukraine to open investigations. Sondland was taken aback by the text, and called Mr. Trump to ask him what he wanted from Zelensky.
"I asked him one open-ended question: What do you want from Ukraine? And as I recall, he was in a very bad mood. It was a very quick conversation. He said: I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. I want Zelensky to do the right thing," Sondland testified.
"And I said: What does that mean? And he said: I want him to do what he ran on. And that was the end of the conversation. I wouldn't say he hung up me, but it was almost like he hung up on me," Sondland continued. Sondland replied to Taylor's text several hours later, relaying the president's assertion that there was "no quid pro quo."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gordon-...es-2019-11-05/Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by seanD View PostNo one still has a clear explanation why the 2016 polls were so wrong.
One explanation I read was that voters were just changing their minds.
I think public stigma of Trump support is as good an explanation as any.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostNo, he said he presumed it, but when he spoke with the President directly, Trump set him straight.
[Sondland] said he did not know why the aid was delayed but "presumed" it was contingent on a public statement...
[...]
On September 9, Bill Taylor, the top U.S. diplomat in Ukraine, sent a message to Sondland questioning whether the U.S. was withholding aid to get Ukraine to open investigations. Sondland was taken aback by the text, and called Mr. Trump to ask him what he wanted from Zelensky.
"I asked him one open-ended question: What do you want from Ukraine? And as I recall, he was in a very bad mood. It was a very quick conversation. He said: I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. I want Zelensky to do the right thing," Sondland testified.
"And I said: What does that mean? And he said: I want him to do what he ran on. And that was the end of the conversation. I wouldn't say he hung up me, but it was almost like he hung up on me," Sondland continued. Sondland replied to Taylor's text several hours later, relaying the president's assertion that there was "no quid pro quo."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gordon-...es-2019-11-05/
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThey weren't "so wrong." Hillary won the popular vote by 3 million, just about what was expected. Russia did target those few states that Manafort targeted for them though, which Trump then barely won which gave him the electoral win.
Yep, misinformation can swing enough people to do the trick, and it seems the collusion with Russia worked.
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Originally posted by Watermelon View PostYes the constitution is law. I'm using law to mean legislative power here.
The president is above the law when it comes to executive power because its vested in the president by the constitution. Executive powers and the president are not the same, congressional powers can bind the president but it can't limit restrict or have any effect on executive powers.
What do you think of Trumps behavior regarding these proceedings?
If you mean ignoring the circus, that was exactly what he should do - let the Dems show their hand. I don't play poker, but I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to turn your cards up before you bet.
Aren't the polls showing 50% of Americans want Trump impeached and removed?"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostOkay... but it's not a good wording.
Using your wording, okay - but this is otherwise a shaky premise. Executing his constitutional power does not place him above the law in the normal sense of the term.
If I were an attorney I wouldn't want him for a client since he won't shut up and you can't make him listen. Politically, I have to admit, his handling shouldn't work (the aforementioned failure to shut up) but it is.
If you mean ignoring the circus, that was exactly what he should do - let the Dems show their hand. I don't play poker, but I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to turn your cards up before you bet.
Nope - that was just the week following the announcement. The numbers have been going down ever since - and they aren't trustworthy to begin with. What the heck could you rationally use to weight the danged things?
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Originally posted by JimLamebrain View PostYes, and if you'd have been paying attention, Trump, unprompted, said "I want nothing, I want no quid pro quo," just after realizing that the whistle had been blown on his scheme. There is also no record of such a call, so no reason to believe the contradiction concerning Sondlands other testimony that "Yes, there was a quid pro quo, and everyone was in on it. Anyway, about that bridge?
"I asked him one open-ended question: What do you want from Ukraine? And as I recall, he was in a very bad mood. It was a very quick conversation. He said: I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. I want Zelensky to do the right thing," Sondland testified.
It's funny how Sondland claims that "everyone was in the loop" and yet nobody could testify hearing it from Trump. In fact, the only testimony we have about a statement directly from Trump himself undermines the whole impeachment narrative.
If this was taking place in a courtroom, the defense would motion for dismissal, and it would be granted!Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by JimL View PostIn the Clinton case 29% wanted him impeached, in this case against Trump, 50% want him impeached, which rose from 30 something % since Pelosi signed on."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostUnprompted? Dude, Sondland asked him what he wanted from Ukraine! The quote is literally right there in the post you responded to!
"I asked him one open-ended question: What do you want from Ukraine? And as I recall, he was in a very bad mood. It was a very quick conversation. He said: I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. I want Zelensky to do the right thing," Sondland testified.
It's funny how Sondland claims that "everyone was in the loop" and yet nobody could testify hearing it from Trump. In fact, the only testimony we have about a statement directly from Trump himself undermines the whole impeachment narrative.
If this was taking place in a courtroom, the defense would motion for dismissal, and it would be granted!
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Originally posted by JimLamebrain View PostDid Sondland even mention a quid pro quo to the president? No he didn't. So what prompted the president even to mention a quid pro quo? Think about it, see if you can figure it out.
Did it really happen that way? I don't know, and neither do you. The point is, the facts lend themselves to multiple explanations. In a court of law, that's known as reasonable doubt.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostConsider this: Sondland says "everybody was in the loop", meaning "everybody" (whoever Sondland was referring to) was passing gossip back and forth because nobody had heard directly from the President. Trump catches wind of it and is understandably frustrated with the rumormongers, so when Sondland asks what Trump wants from Ukraine, Trump immediately shuts down the rumor mill with a clear and direct answer: "I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo."
Did it really happen that way? I don't know, and neither do you. The point is, the facts lend themselves to multiple explanations. In a court of law, that's known as reasonable doubt.Last edited by JimL; 12-03-2019, 10:43 PM.
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So Sondland is not a credible witness in any way, and all of his testimony should be tossed.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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