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Do Protestants Have A Problem With Works?

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  • Do Protestants Have A Problem With Works?

    Should we go on guard when we hear works talked about?

    Link

    -----

    Is works salvation really a major issue today? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    Yesterday at a Bible Study at the Orthodox Church my wife attends, we were going through Revelation 14 and I heard the priest get to the verse about those who die in the Lord for they will rest and their works will follow them. He remarked that Protestants have a problem with this verse. For me, I was sitting right there as the Protestant in the room and thinking, “I don’t have a problem with it.” I don’t know how we could get statistics on how many Protestants might have a problem with it, but I figured it could be something interesting to write on.

    I think those of us who are Protestants have rightly emphasized salvation by grace through faith. It cannot be earned. It is a gift. It is not wages that are given out because we are good boys and girls.

    So when I see this verse in Revelation, I think it means the work that the person has done immediately is done. They themselves will work no more, but the effects of what they have done will live on. Why would that be a problem?

    If we go back to the Reformation, I am convinced the Protestants had the better arguments, but their exegesis was still not the best overall. Now I think there’s more evidence that what is being discussed in Galatians is not if salvation is by works or if it is by grace. It is instead being discussed what is the identity marker of if one is a Christian? Is it keeping the Law, i.e. circumcision, or is it faith in Christ?

    If we’re Protestants, we shouldn’t balk when we hear works being talked about. Works are great and wonderful things. Picture a man who goes to an altar one day next to a woman he loves and says, “I do.” Then he goes back home to his parents and stays there. He never interacts with his wife or has sex with her or provides for her or anything, but he insists that he is married. We would all seriously question that one.

    If you are a Christian, then along the way you ought to show the signs that you are a Christian. If you are not producing any fruit at all, we have reason to doubt your Christianity. This shouldn’t be a problem. It’s abundant in Scripture. Christ says He who abides in Him will produce much fruit. Ephesians 2:8-9 is followed by a verse saying that we are saved by grace through faith and the very next verse talks about the works that we do. While James 2 is often misunderstood, it is certainly right in the emphasis on how important works are and I would argue that James is talking about justification before men and not before God.

    While I do think the comment yesterday might have been exaggerated, we who are Protestants do not need to shy away from doing good works and we need sermons on the importance of doing good works. Again, none of this is so that we can be Christians. We do good works because we are Christians and we have a job to do. We are to do the Great Commission.

    It still is a tragedy to me today that there are three branches of Christianity today and I do look forward to the unity of all three one day. Still, we should all agree on the importance of doing good works. If a tree doesn’t produce any fruit, we can rightly speculate that the tree is dead. If we do not produce any fruit in our Christian walk, people can rightly speculate that our faith is dead.

    Again, I don’t know how many Protestants really do have a problem with the passage, but we shouldn’t. We should be greatly emphasizing the importance of doing good works. Those start with loving God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength and loving our neighbor as ourselves.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  • #2
    Did you speak up, or wait to write about it here? Do you know if other Protestants generally think the same way you do about this verse?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • #3
      What exactly are good works? Is it being helpful and friendly? Being generous? Being kind?
      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm not sure how interpreting James 2 as being about justification before men addresses the question of James 2:14, much less how it doesn't jive with James 2:23 and 25, since the justification of Abraham and Rahab by their works have nothing to do with being justified before men. Not to mention how seeking to be justified before men would rather contradict Matthew 6:1-4.

        Speaking of Matthew, I wonder what's your take on Matthew 25:14-30 and 31-46.
        The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Did you speak up, or wait to write about it here? Do you know if other Protestants generally think the same way you do about this verse?
          I tend to not speak up often in Bible study. If I do, I will speak up on many many things and there are several people, so I just wrote about it here.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Dante View Post
            I'm not sure how interpreting James 2 as being about justification before men addresses the question of James 2:14, much less how it doesn't jive with James 2:23 and 25, since the justification of Abraham and Rahab by their works have nothing to do with being justified before men. Not to mention how seeking to be justified before men would rather contradict Matthew 6:1-4.

            Speaking of Matthew, I wonder what's your take on Matthew 25:14-30 and 31-46.
            I think it's just saying a true faith will result in works, and both of these were lived out and we know the stories today. How do we know they were faithful? Because of what they did.

            I also would say that that's how I interpret the other passages. A true faith produces true works.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
              I tend to not speak up often in Bible study. If I do, I will speak up on many many things and there are several people, so I just wrote about it here.
              Respectfully, as a (known) Protestant attending the study, it is practically your duty to correct what you see as an erroneous statement of your position. If you're going to push back about something, why not push back at the person who actually stated it? It's sort of not nice to remain silent there, then respond where he's not likely to see it.

              I also note you neglected to answer my other question.

              ETA: To answer the question of your thread title, yes, Protestants tend to have a problem with works (the particular verse you cited notwithstanding).
              Last edited by One Bad Pig; 11-14-2019, 01:13 PM.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                I think it's just saying a true faith will result in works, and both of these were lived out and we know the stories today. How do we know they were faithful? Because of what they did.

                I also would say that that's how I interpret the other passages. A true faith produces true works.
                Except in all of Scripture, works were never spoken of as a product of faith, but faith working together with works, and by works faith is made perfect. James 2:22
                The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  Respectfully, as a (known) Protestant attending the study, it is practically your duty to correct what you see as an erroneous statement of your position. If you're going to push back about something, why not push back at the person who actually stated it? It's sort of not nice to remain silent there, then respond where he's not likely to see it.

                  I also note you neglected to answer my other question.

                  ETA: To answer the question of your thread title, yes, Protestants tend to have a problem with works (the particular verse you cited notwithstanding).
                  I don't see how I neglected to answer. I just said I haven't got to do any sort of survey.

                  Sometimes I want to say something, but I don't always get to in time before everyone has moved on to some other topic. The priest and i have a good relationship though. He follows me on Facebook and my posts are always there.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dante View Post
                    Except in all of Scripture, works were never spoken of as a product of faith, but faith working together with works, and by works faith is made perfect. James 2:22
                    I would have no problem with that aside from seeing those works do come from being in Christ, such as in John 15.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dante View Post
                      Except in all of Scripture, works were never spoken of as a product of faith, but faith working together with works, and by works faith is made perfect. James 2:22
                      That's a matter of interpretation. Protestants (with the exception of too large a percentage of Arminians) do not see what you see in Scripture.

                      While you interpret Jas. 2 through the lens of v. 22, we interpret it through 2:18. (Admittedly it is rarely a good idea to interpret an entire passage through a single verse, but oh well.)

                      Similarly in Eph. 2, we see v. 10 as the result of vv. 8 and 9, not something added to them.

                      We see Tit. 3:8 as the result of 3:5-7, not something added to them.
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                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                        That's a matter of interpretation. Protestants (with the exception of too large a percentage of Arminians) do not see what you see in Scripture.

                        While you interpret Jas. 2 through the lens of v. 22, we interpret it through 2:18. (Admittedly it is rarely a good idea to interpret an entire passage through a single verse, but oh well.)

                        Similarly in Eph. 2, we see v. 10 as the result of vv. 8 and 9, not something added to them.

                        We see Tit. 3:8 as the result of 3:5-7, not something added to them.
                        I'm not sure you understand what Arminians actually believe, or perhaps you have conflated Arminianism with something else that's decidedly not Arminian.

                        Actually I interpret James 2 through verse 14.

                        As for Ephesians 2:10, Augustine saw it as a point added in order to disabuse anyone of the notion of Sola Fide.

                        Source: Augustine, On Grace And Free Will, Chapter 20.— The Question [How is Eternal Life Both a Reward for Service and a Free Gift of Grace?] Answered. Justification is Grace Simply and Entirely, Eternal Life is Reward and Grace.

                        This question, then, seems to me to be by no means capable of solution, unless we understand that even those good works of ours, which are recompensed with eternal life, belong to the grace of God, because of what is said by the Lord Jesus: "Without me you can do nothing." John 15:5 And the apostle himself, after saying, "By grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast;" Ephesians 2:8-9 saw, of course, the possibility that men would think from this statement that good works are not necessary to those who believe, but that faith alone suffices for them; and again, the possibility of men's boasting of their good works, as if they were of themselves capable of performing them. To meet, therefore, these opinions on both sides, he immediately added, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10 What is the purport of his saying, "Not of works, lest any man should boast," while commending the grace of God? And then why does he afterwards, when giving a reason for using such words, say, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works"? Why, therefore, does it run, "Not of works, lest any man should boast"? Now, hear and understand. "Not of works" is spoken of the works which you suppose have their origin in yourself alone; but you have to think of works for which God has moulded (that is, has formed and created) you. For of these he says, "We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works." Now he does not here speak of that creation which made us human beings, but of that in reference to which one said who was already in full manhood, "Create in me a clean heart, O God;" concerning which also the apostle says, "Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things have become new. And all things are of God." 2 Corinthians 5:17-18 We are framed, therefore, that is, formed and created, "in the good works which" we have not ourselves prepared, but "God has before ordained that we should walk in them." It follows, then, dearly beloved, beyond all doubt, that as your good life is nothing else than God's grace, so also the eternal life which is the recompense of a good life is the grace of God; moreover it is given gratuitously, even as that is given gratuitously to which it is given. But that to which it is given is solely and simply grace; this therefore is also that which is given to it, because it is its reward —grace is for grace, as if remuneration for righteousness; in order that it may be true, because it is true, that God "shall reward every man according to his works."

                        © Copyright Original Source



                        I cannot see Titus 3:8 as a "result" of Titus 3:5-7 because it makes absolutely zero sense outside of the presupposition of Sola Fide.
                        The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                          I would have no problem with that aside from seeing those works do come from being in Christ, such as in John 15.
                          Speaking of works coming from being in Christ:

                          Scripture Verse: Matthew 25:14-30

                          14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

                          20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

                          24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

                          26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

                          29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          Indeed, anyone who has died to sin is now a slave to righteousness, that is, a servant of God, and as servants of God, we are not only made for good works (Ephesians 2:10) but also given good works to do.
                          Last edited by Dante; 11-18-2019, 05:27 AM.
                          The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dante View Post
                            Speaking of works coming from being in Christ:

                            Scripture Verse: Matthew 25:14-30

                            14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

                            20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

                            24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’

                            26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

                            29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            Indeed, anyone who has died to sin is now a slave to righteousness, that is, a servant of God, and as servants of God, we are not only made for good works (Ephesians 2:10) but also given good works to do.
                            I'm really not sure how the parable establishes the point.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                              I'm really not sure how the parable establishes the point.
                              We are justified by works, and not by faith alone. The wicked and lazy servant feared his master, and did nothing with what he was given, and as a result, he was punished. Perhaps Christ's foretelling of the Day of Judgement which immediately followed after the parable of the talents would make things a lot clearer:

                              Scripture Verse: Matthew 25:31-46

                              31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

                              37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

                              41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

                              44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

                              © Copyright Original Source

                              The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

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