Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 15

Thread: Jesus' "You will hear" about these things - different futurist perspective

  1. #1
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,190
    Amen (Given)
    224
    Amen (Received)
    936

    Jesus' "You will hear" about these things - different futurist perspective

    I thought I'd make a thread to clarify this because this subject has been brought up a lot to me in eschatological debates.

    Preterists need not reply since we already know "coming" in the OD to them represents the 70 A.D. war. This is not what futurists believe. Futurists essentially believe "coming" is Jesus' return.

    Since this didn't happen in the first century, the OD should be viewed as a split prophecy (or double fulfillment), one that includes the fall of the temple (first century), and the other that includes his return (yet to be future). Although, there might be futurists that believe a third temple will be built and destroyed. But this isn't the subject of the thread.

    When Jesus said "you will hear" about these things and goes on to describe a turbulent time and specific detailed events that take place during that time, futurists have a tendency to claim that those events are increasing (percentage-wise) in our generation as proof that we're heading to the end times.

    This is a mistake and here's why.

    The reason I no longer hold this interpretation is that a generation comparing current events to prior generations in order to accurately assess a clear distinction would be extremely difficult -- if not impossible. How can we even in our generation of exceptional access to data and information gauge whether earthquakes, for example, have increased against data that didn't exist even a hundred years ago? It simply can't be accurately gauged even by us.

    However, the perception of increase is the only thing that would make it distinguishable, thus a "sign." The perception of events he described (other than the destruction of the temple) is unique ONLY to our generation with our communication technology, and I think that's what Jesus was referring to. His hear of these troubling things I believe was significant. Something has to make "You will hear" distinguishable because every generation, including the generations prior to Christ experienced the things he described and heard about those things happening. Most of what he described are just natural events that have occurred over the course of human civilization.

    So it's only really meaningful to believe that Jesus' "You will hear" meant the perception of these events will increase. In fact, perception would increase to such a magnitude that it will not only be unique with that particular generation, but it will cause unique forms of collective anxiety from hearing about these events so rapidly and widespread unlike any other generation prior.

    In short, "this generation" he described would suffer a unique symptom of what I call NIO (negative information overload), and that generation is at least a generation subsequent to not just the internet, but the total fruition of social media which is what we've had since about 2000.

    So, with the exception of the temple destruction, these events happening can't be the "sign" (the specific word they used when they asked Jesus of his coming) because they were happening before and during Christ's first appearance. Our perception of these events increasing was the sign because it is the only thing that separates our generation apart from all previous generations.
    Last edited by seanD; 11-15-2019 at 07:03 PM.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  2. #2
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Near my best friend (see photo above)
    Faith
    Catholic XPian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    731
    Amen (Given)
    2081
    Amen (Received)
    149
    Another possible position (i.e., the one I incline to): the Coming of Christ (like much else in Primitive Christianity) is past, present, and future. Compare Rev. 1.8; 11.17; &, in the OT, Exodus 3.14. This position seems to be quite strongly implied in St Matthew in particular.

    His Messianic Kingship is like this. Justification is like this. Why should His Coming not be like this ? IOW, neither Preterism nor Futurism is entirely correct, or the whole story: both are partly correct, and both need (what might be called) Presentism as well. ISTM that Christ has altered space and time, because of the way that both relate to Him. The Ascension exemplified this. So did His Resurrection-Appearances. He has begun to re-make the universe - and the changing of time, by initiating “Messianic time”, eschatological time in Him, is the beginning of this. As is the justification of His People. It’s all connected. The Messiah is “the Coming One”, because of what is said in Ex. 3.14.

  3. #3
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Inside the beltway
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    21,325
    Amen (Given)
    6326
    Amen (Received)
    12089
    An interesting argument, but you might want to check out past exegesis of the first part of Matthew 24 (e.g., John Chrysostom, Augustine, the time leading up to the end of the first millennium, the Reformation, etc.); people have often been confident that the return of Christ was imminent based on what was going on around them.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  4. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  5. #4
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,190
    Amen (Given)
    224
    Amen (Received)
    936
    OBP, I think you're missing the main point of the thread. It doesn't matter that past generations have been wrong. That isn't the point. No other generation would have been able to perceive ("you will hear") such events on a scale anywhere close to this generation. Not just the scope of the events themselves, but on a global collective level. Now, there could be future technology that increases this perception scale beyond anything we can imagine even beyond this generation. In fact, there could be a time that everyone in the world is literally locked into the internet like something out some dystopian Matrix movie. That's always possible.

    Rushing Jaws, I'm not sure I get what you're arguing. Is this what they call "Full Preterism"?
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  6. #5
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Inside the beltway
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    21,325
    Amen (Given)
    6326
    Amen (Received)
    12089
    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    OBP, I think you're missing the main point of the thread. It doesn't matter that past generations have been wrong. That isn't the point. No other generation would have been able to perceive ("you will hear") such events on a scale anywhere close to this generation. Not just the scope of the events themselves, but on a global collective level. Now, there could be future technology that increases this perception scale beyond anything we can imagine even beyond this generation. In fact, there could be a time that everyone in the world is literally locked into the internet like something out some dystopian Matrix movie. That's always possible.
    Yet, as even you acknowledge, the events themselves aren't really happening on a more frequent basis, so we're back to perception. Other generations in the past have perceived the same apparent increase in events; what does the scale of the perception have to do with anything when the perception is no less inaccurate?

    I'm not sure what RJ is trying to argue, but it doesn't look like full preterism.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  7. #6
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,190
    Amen (Given)
    224
    Amen (Received)
    936
    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Yet, as even you acknowledge, the events themselves aren't really happening on a more frequent basis, so we're back to perception. Other generations in the past have perceived the same apparent increase in events; what does the scale of the perception have to do with anything when the perception is no less inaccurate?

    I'm not sure what RJ is trying to argue, but it doesn't look like full preterism.
    I didn't say the events aren't happening with more frequency, I said we can't accurately gauge this, including and especially the first century. Perception of the events is important because it's the only factor that distinguishes what and how "you will hear" about the events. It also distinguishes the negative effect it will have on a collective level.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  8. #7
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    692
    Amen (Given)
    65
    Amen (Received)
    35
    Good idea. Goes along with the notion of "the whole world" gazing on the dead bodies of the two witnesses. God knows how the preterists interpret that. It probably varies amongst each one, like most of their "theology".

  9. #8
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,190
    Amen (Given)
    224
    Amen (Received)
    936
    Quote Originally Posted by Darfius View Post
    Good idea. Goes along with the notion of "the whole world" gazing on the dead bodies of the two witnesses. God knows how the preterists interpret that. It probably varies amongst each one, like most of their "theology".
    I think that's one of the main exclusions of all previous generations, especially the first century.

    Remember, many if not most of the disciples who later became apostles were either martyred or weren't even in Palastine at the time of 70 A.D. war. They were off in other regions preaching the gospel. Though there is an ECF source that says the Christians that stayed there apparently fled to Pella, there's no indication from that source (at least from what I remember) who they were and how many there were.

    Moreover, just because there may have been some Christians that stayed in Palastine and may have heard of earthquakes, wars, tribe against tribe, famines, pestilence (and this is highly debatable that even first century Christians in Israel alone had the means to hear about all these events at once), that doesn't mean the Christians in other countries heard about these things. In fact, there's no possible way they could have.

    So even in the scope of preterism, which limits much of the OD to only first century Christians prior 70 A.D., this is a problem, much more so from a futurist perspective.

    Our generation is the only generation where most if not all Christians would hear the news of these events at the same time. So it's not just the perception of the accumulation of these events that is of greater magnitude, but access to this information of these events is far more widespread.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  10. Amen Darfius amen'd this post.
  11. #9
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Inside the beltway
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    21,325
    Amen (Given)
    6326
    Amen (Received)
    12089
    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    Moreover, just because there may have been some Christians that stayed in Palastine and may have heard of earthquakes, wars, tribe against tribe, famines, pestilence (and this is highly debatable that even first century Christians in Israel alone had the means to hear about all these events at once), that doesn't mean the Christians in other countries heard about these things. In fact, there's no possible way they could have.
    You're dismissing the perception of first century Christians because it doesn't fit with your modern notion of what they should have perceived?

    Our generation is the only generation where most if not all Christians would hear the news of these events at the same time. So it's not just the perception of the accumulation of these events that is of greater magnitude, but access to this information of these events is far more widespread.
    Again, no. Our perception is based on access to a greater magnitude of information regarding events. This still fails to address the fact that, in the past, there was a perception based on known/remembered events that they were in the last times. "This time, we're for really in the last times" rings especially hollow when pretty much all evidence from people in the past who thought they were in the last times is ignored or outright dismissed. Ignorance is not a virtue.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  12. #10
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,190
    Amen (Given)
    224
    Amen (Received)
    936
    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Our perception is based on access to a greater magnitude of information regarding events.
    Yes, and this why I believe this is the "sign" Jesus was referring to and what he specifically meant by "hear." I left out the rest of your post because I have no idea what your point was.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  13. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •