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Trump issues at least two pardons to service members

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  • #46
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    What are you going for seer? No - that was a horrible thing. And by todays standards it would be a war crime. But it happened in WWII, not today.

    Why were Chemical weapons banned after WWI?

    What was the Geneva convention all about seer?

    Why over time have we as a global civilization developed rules that we expect to be followed in war, and that we will indeed try participants in a war for? Do you believe anything goes in war? if So, let's bring back chemical weapons. Hey , why not biological and nuclear too. Lets use lead bullets again. heck, who needs prisoners or the humane treatment of the same. Torture - have at it. Go for it. No rules. Just hell on earth unlimited.
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 11-18-2019, 01:53 PM.
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      What are you going for seer? No - that was a horrible thing. And by todays standards it would be a war crime. But it happened in WWII, not today.

      Why were Chemical weapons banned after WWI?

      What was the Geneva convention all about seer?

      Why over time have we as a global civilization developed rules that we expect to be followed in war, and that we will indeed try participants in a war for? Do you believe anything goes in war? if So, let's bring back chemical weapons. Hey , why not biological and nuclear too. Lets use lead bullets again. heck, who needs prisoners or the humane treatment of the same. Torture - have at it. Go for it. No rules. Just hell on earth unlimited.
      Hey Jim, if Saddam used chemical weapons against us I would have little problem using them against him. If we could beat him without chemicals fine, but I would not tie the hands of our military and follow rules that our enemy doesn't. And Jim the Geneva convention was in effect when we bombed Tokyo - so was it a war crime then?
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Hey Jim, if Saddam used chemical weapons against us I would have little problem using them against him. If we could beat him without chemicals fine, but I would not tie the hands of our military and follow rules that our enemy doesn't. And Jim the Geneva convention was in effect when we bombed Tokyo - so was it a war crime then?
        I don't really know the answer to that. But we are talking about shooting combatants in POW camps and/or that are surrendering. And those are war crimes. I don't believe it is in anyone's best interests to ignore those rules of war. And just how exactly are you going to prosecute General X for using chemical weapons if we turn around and use them too. And exactly by what authority would we go in ad get rid of some nations chemical weapons supply if we did not not agree it was wrong to use them. And so on.

        You are advocating for anarchy. For the removal of what little restraint exists.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • #49
          This is not a good line of argument, seer.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            laws change. The fact they change does not make them irrelevant. But lawlessness, now that is problem. And you should know that.
            Of course I know that. But I also know that we train soldiers and equip them to kill people and break things, and put them in hostile situations where it's not always clear who the enemy is. Then we change the rules of engagement go make it more difficult for them to protect themselves and their fellow soldiers.

            To the specifics of these cases, I do not know.
            I gather that.

            I was addressing the general issue of shooting POW's or surrendering combatants.
            This is not that.

            Our laws prohibit the killing of POW's or combatants engaged in legitimate surrender.
            This is not that.

            If we do not follow the laws because someone else broke them, we are no better than they are.
            Never said otherwise.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              here too, it is more subtle. Sometimes it is unfair to the police officers. sometimes it is unfair to innocent people unfairly arrested or worse. There is no 'one size fits all' statement or reaction. You have to take it on a case by case basis.
              Absolutely, but in the case of police officers, it's often the court of public opinion and perceived racism that interferes.

              But in the case of the military where the rules have been around for decades, you follow the rules.
              And, again, the rules of engagement change.

              And if you don't enforce them, you'll have lawlessness. Again, as to the specifics of these cases, I do not know what we actually have.
              Then, perhaps it would be best not to comment?

              I can say I would not Trust Trump's judgement on it - he's not a person that thinks deeply about anything. And the fact the Pentagon warned him not to act is significant and not in his favor. But at the same time, I think a lot of times our Police and our Military get a raw deal from our politicians and activists.
              Ah, back to "it's all about Trump".

              But without more info, I don't really have a strong opinion at this point.
              But.... since Trump did it, it must be really bad?
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                This is not a good line of argument, seer.
                And I want to make it clear that I am not in agreement with Seer's argument in this case.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  This is not a good line of argument, seer.
                  Let me ask you. The Germans introduced gas warfare in WW1, there is good reason to believe that if the Allies did not return the favor that we could have lost the war. So would you rather keep your ideals and possibly be beaten and dominated by a totalitarian regime or fight fire with fire?

                  https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/16/obam...-far-left.html
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    And, again, the rules of engagement change.
                    I know a Marine who did two tours in Afghanistan under Obama. If a group of men shot at you then put down their weapons and ran away you could no longer engage. Many infantry rifle companies did not follow those rules. They could have been charged - some here would be perfectly fine with that.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      I know a Marine who did two tours in Afghanistan under Obama. If a group of men shot at you then put down their weapons and ran away you could no longer engage. Many infantry rifle companies did not follow those rules. They could have been charged - some here would be perfectly fine with that.
                      To be fair, IIRC, the rules of engagement were getting pretty murky during the last few years of the Bush Administration as well.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Of course I know that. But I also know that we train soldiers and equip them to kill people and break things, and put them in hostile situations where it's not always clear who the enemy is. Then we change the rules of engagement go make it more difficult for them to protect themselves and their fellow soldiers.



                        I gather that.



                        This is not that.



                        This is not that.



                        Never said otherwise.
                        CP - I was addressing that issue of killing POW's or surrendering combatants as it was raised by seer. I'm not really addressing the issue of the men Trump pardoned. So I'm not sure why you would be commenting the way you are on my posts thus far.
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          CP - I was addressing that issue of killing POW's or surrendering combatants as it was raised by seer. I'm not really addressing the issue of the men Trump pardoned. So I'm not sure why you would be commenting the way you are on my posts thus far.
                          I think what's happening here, Jim, is that your ... um... alleged hatred of Trump.... was allowing you to assume that my arguments and Seer's were the same. They were not.

                          I think, once again, you were simply arguing "with them", and I was "them".
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            I know a Marine who did two tours in Afghanistan under Obama. If a group of men shot at you then put down their weapons and ran away you could no longer engage. Many infantry rifle companies did not follow those rules. They could have been charged - some here would be perfectly fine with that.
                            I'm very connected (through my brother, a Marine) with the community at Camp Lejeune. Another absolutely frustrating thing was that soldiers and marines could receive fire from battlefield combatants who would simply step back into a crowd of non-combatants, and they were not allowed to respond in any way - no attempt whatsoever to advance and separate the combatants from the non-combatants. They could literally watch the combatants hand their arms to women who would conceal them up under their garb, but there was nothing they could do.


                            And it doesn't take the enemy long to figure out what they can and cannot get away with.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              To be fair, IIRC, the rules of engagement were getting pretty murky during the last few years of the Bush Administration as well.
                              Yeah, and the Rules of Engagement have been all over the place.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                I know a Marine who did two tours in Afghanistan under Obama. If a group of men shot at you then put down their weapons and ran away you could no longer engage. Many infantry rifle companies did not follow those rules. They could have been charged - some here would be perfectly fine with that.
                                yeah - that seems kinda crazy. Once they've attacked, you should be allowed to halt the attack and remove them from the theatre if you can (them surrendering accomplishes that as well, and you would not kill them if that is what they chose to do).

                                As was pointed out in the first Iraq war - retreat is a military strategy, it is not surrender. shoot then run is attack/retreat.

                                Jim
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                                Comment

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