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Trump issues at least two pardons to service members

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  • #61
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    yeah - that seems kinda crazy. Once they've attacked, you should be allowed to halt the attack and remove them from the theatre if you can (them surrendering accomplishes that as well, and you would not kill them if that is what they chose to do).

    As was pointed out in the first Iraq war - retreat is a military strategy, it is not surrender. shoot then run is attack/retreat.

    Jim
    They don't even have to "attack/retreat", Jim -- so much of this is urban warfare, and they simply melt back into the crowd. The weapons can get passed around, and since none of the enemy combatants are in uniform, it's virtually impossible to sort out the combatants from the "friendlies".
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      To be fair, IIRC, the rules of engagement were getting pretty murky during the last few years of the Bush Administration as well.
      That is true...
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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      • #63
        OK, hold on a sec.... lemme find my Captain Obvious cover.....

        [wearing cover]

        All of this began to change in Vietnam where "the enemy" no longer wore identifiable uniforms, but often fought in "pajamas", and the rules of engagement became difficult to enforce. Advance through the Soviets fought the Afghans, and, again, "who is the enemy"?

        Fast forward to Iraq/Iran, and when fighting the enemy, it was often clear who the enemy were by their uniforms and modes of transportation.

        Now we're fighting "terrorists" with absolutely no limitations on how and when and where they fight, and even engaging children (as was happening in Vietnam) in the battle.

        If I might be allowed a wee bit of comic relief - we've come a LONG way from the "good ol' days" of "European Warfare"... 50 seconds in.



        [removing cover]
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          They don't even have to "attack/retreat", Jim -- so much of this is urban warfare, and they simply melt back into the crowd. The weapons can get passed around, and since none of the enemy combatants are in uniform, it's virtually impossible to sort out the combatants from the "friendlies".
          That is true. They had similar problems in Vietnam with children being used sacrificially. It is not in our best interests in situations like these to adopt policies that give the enemy an advantage. And especially unfair to hold our men accountable for not splitting hairs precisely with difficult judgement calls and when our people's lives are on the line. It is, after all, war. This is why on this particular issue I may find myself agreeing with Trump once I know a little bit more about what actually happened and why they were convicted. As I said, Trump is not known for his own capacity to make informed decisions, so I have to rule out that he was shooting from the hip into a hornets nest.
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

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          • #65
            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            That is true. They had similar problems in Vietnam with children being used sacrificially. It is not in our best interests in situations like these to adopt policies that give the enemy an advantage. And especially unfair to hold our men accountable for not splitting hairs precisely with difficult judgement calls and when our people's lives are on the line. It is, after all, war. This is why on this particular issue I may find myself agreeing with Trump once I know a little bit more about what actually happened and why they were convicted. As I said, Trump is not known for his own capacity to make informed decisions, so I have to rule out that he was shooting from the hip into a hornets nest.
            I think the propensity of some to be against this just because it's Trump - or like another poster claims, it's only political because Trump doesn't give a flip about these soldiers - is silly. What has Trump got to gain politically by doing this? He's certainly hacking off a number of military biggies and others.

            And, are these same people of a similar mind on Trump's prison reform?

            I think this is one of those rare moments when Trump is actually trying to right some wrongs, but because it's Trump, it MUST be bad.

            HOWEVER --- I'm still digging into this, Jim.... if I find out that there was some political motive for Trump and that these guys needed to STAY in confinement, or reduced in rank, than I'll be happy to produce that, as well.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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            • #66
              FTR, I pretty much think "rules" of war are stupid. If something is important enough to go to war about, the main "rule" should be "win."
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              • #67
                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                FTR, I pretty much think "rules" of war are stupid. If something is important enough to go to war about, the main "rule" should be "win."
                My main concern would be the non-combatants who are, in military terms, "collateral damage". If both sides could get their soldiers together away from the civilian population and nuke it out, that'd be different.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                • #68
                  These men were tried and were found guilty of desecration, of murder, and of ordering murder. Stop making excuses for them. Trump is pardoning them for one reason and one reason only, he thinks it will benefit himself politically.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    These men were tried and were found guilty of desecration, of murder, and of ordering murder.
                    That's what the liberaltalkingpointsfordummies says?

                    Stop making excuses for them.
                    You seem absolutely obsessed with "excuses", Jim. I've actually been looking into the details, not just believing partisan talking points.

                    Trump is pardoning them for one reason and one reason only, he thinks it will benefit himself politically.
                    That would be would be the perspective of somebody suffering from advanced TDS, Jim. Let's deal with facts, not fantasy, OK?
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      That's what the liberaltalkingpointsfordummies says?



                      You seem absolutely obsessed with "excuses", Jim. I've actually been looking into the details, not just believing partisan talking points.



                      That would be would be the perspective of somebody suffering from advanced TDS, Jim. Let's deal with facts, not fantasy, OK?
                      I am dealing with facts, CP, you are not. It's not what liberaltalkingpointsfordummies says, it's what a military court said.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        I am dealing with facts, CP, you are not. It's not what liberaltalkingpointsfordummies says, it's what a military court said.
                        You really do not know the facts, Jim.

                        You were not in that court. You don't know what was presented. You don't know any of the actual facts of the case, and it is not at all unusual for the results of military tribunals to be set aside. Subsequent appeals can lesson or negate the punishment, but can never increase the punishment.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          You really do not know the facts, Jim.

                          You were not in that court. You don't know what was presented. You don't know any of the actual facts of the case, and it is not at all unusual for the results of military tribunals to be set aside. Subsequent appeals can lesson or negate the punishment, but can never increase the punishment.
                          No, I do not know the facts, and neither do you, but those who found them guilty did know the facts and found them guilty of murder, of ordering others to murder unarmed men, and of desecrating dead bodies. Subsequent appeals are subsequent appeals, the presidents pardon was nothing but an undermining of justice for his own personal political ends.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            No, I do not know the facts
                            Finally said something true!
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                              FTR, I pretty much think "rules" of war are stupid. If something is important enough to go to war about, the main "rule" should be "win."
                              It does seem a ridiculous posture. "We're going to kill you to take over you/defend ourselves, but we need to be gentlemen about it." But it helps the more conscientious soldiers live with themselves after the fighting.

                              Clearly the military was being unreasonably hamstrung by rules of engagement under Obama, and Trump is doing what he can to reverse some of the damage.
                              Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                You really do not know the facts, Jim.

                                You were not in that court. You don't know what was presented. You don't know any of the actual facts of the case, and it is not at all unusual for the results of military tribunals to be set aside. Subsequent appeals can lesson or negate the punishment, but can never increase the punishment.
                                Anyone else here think that if it had been a Democrat president who pardoned them that little jimmy and shuny would be leading the praises for his compassion and sense of justice?

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