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  1. #91
    tWebber Psychic Missile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Hi PM! Haven't seen you in a while.

    I grew up in the Seventies and watched women fight to get any funding for their athletics. Now, everything we worked so hard for is being stolen. If you think this is in anyway fair, you're (general) a misogynist.
    I've been lurking and been judicial in what threads I involve myself with. It's been especially boring since every thread in Civics has been about the impeachment hearings.

    I consider transwomen to be women, so I don't see it as men encroaching into a place women fought for. I'm not interested in debating why transpeople are the sex they identify as since that's a much more involved topic. My objection is to conservatives being concerned about transwoman athletes having a competitive advantage but not caring about more significant outliers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    You do know doping is not allowed - a man entering a woman's event is every bit as underhanded and unfair. If you (personal) support this you are anti-feminist in both the original and current understandings of the term.
    A transwoman who completes HRT should have equivalent androgen levels to ciswomen. In that circumstance, what is the parallel to doping? TERFs/gender critical feminists are a minority, so that characterization is inaccurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Which is why it's banned from athletics. Estrogen treatment never sets the clock back - the man will always retain significant advantages over women. It's a stupid version of doping - and still grossly unfair.
    So you would have no problem with a transwoman participating in a woman's athletic competition if her androgen levels were indistinguishable from her peers? What other advantages would you object to?

  2. #92
    tWebber Psychic Missile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    The fact is that these men don't even have to take the first step in transitioning to compete. All they have to do is declare that they identify with being a woman. In fact, technically speaking, they could at some later date, declare that they no longer feel girlie any more and still keep their medals they won competing as a girl/woman.
    If that was the case, it would be a clear advantage, and not something I would generally support.

  3. #93
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychic Missile View Post
    I've been lurking and been judicial in what threads I involve myself with. It's been especially boring since every thread in Civics has been about the impeachment hearings.


    I consider transwomen to be women, so I don't see it as men encroaching into a place women fought for. I'm not interested in debating why transpeople are the sex they identify as since that's a much more involved topic. My objection is to conservatives being concerned about transwoman athletes having a competitive advantage but not caring about more significant outliers.
    That's unfortunate as it is clearly misogyny. It is demeaning and deeply offensive to women to say that a man is a woman just because he is mutilated and drugged. It's also a cruelty to the mentally ill who get railroaded into politically correct 'treatments' that not only fail but are irreversible.

    A transwoman who completes HRT should have equivalent androgen levels to ciswomen. In that circumstance, what is the parallel to doping? TERFs/gender critical feminists are a minority, so that characterization is inaccurate.
    We biological women are women - please stop using derogatory phrases like 'ciswomen' - and no, I'm not kidding and yes, as a woman I truly find it insulting.

    No male ever becomes a biological female. We are far more than our hormone levels. I did weightlifting years ago - and even as a still young woman then and working hard, I never had any chance of having male levels of muscle fiber or bone mass. There was no way to ever compete against even much lighter weight men - the advantages of growing up male do not go away because you dope down to female hormone levels. The advantages remain and are grossly unfair.

    So you would have no problem with a transwoman participating in a woman's athletic competition if her androgen levels were indistinguishable from her peers? What other advantages would you object to?
    Hormone levels are only part of the picture - he is still the equivalent of a doped up female - probably most comparable to the Russian females of the Seventies who were so doped up that they were developing male attributes - but even they couldn't best male athletic records..
    Last edited by Teallaura; 11-27-2019 at 01:10 PM.

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  5. #94
    tWebber Psychic Missile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    That's unfortunate as it is clearly misogyny. It is demeaning and deeply offensive to women to say that a man is a woman just because he is mutilated and drugged. It's also a cruelty to the mentally ill who get railroaded into politically correct 'treatments' that not only fail but are irreversible.
    Based on the evidence I've read, I believe transwomen are born with brains that have an innate female identity. I also believe that men and women are on opposite ends of a spectrum rather than exist as a binary because of the many observable atypical expressions of sex characteristics. Finally, I believe that transitioning can be helpful in treating people with dysphoria, and generally trust doctors to make that determination. I'm not setting up an argument here, like I said I have no interest in debating whether trans people should transition or whether transpeople are truly the sex they identify as, I'm just giving you an idea of where I'm coming from and why I don't buy into push-back against transitioning/trans acceptance. It also isn't relevant to the point of contention.

    We biological women are women - please stop using derogatory phrases like 'ciswomen' - and no, I'm not kidding and yes, as a woman I truly find it insulting.
    What about it specifically is insulting or derogatory?

    No male ever becomes a biological female. We are far more than our hormone levels. I did weightlifting years ago - and even as a still young woman then and working hard, I never had any chance of having male levels of muscle fiber or bone mass. There was no way to ever compete against even much lighter weight men - the advantages of growing up male do not go away because you dope down to female hormone levels. The advantages remain and are grossly unfair.

    Hormone levels are only part of the picture - he is still the equivalent of a doped up female - probably most comparable to the Russian females of the Seventies who were so doped up that they were developing male attributes - but even they couldn't best male athletic records..
    Hormones (and receptors) are what allow for men to gain muscle mass so easily, that's why I'm focusing on it as the differentiator. Any other advantage would be indistinguishable from, or lesser than, beneficial genetic mutations. The purpose of doping is to increase testosterone/androgens, so a transwoman who has completed HRT would, by any definition, not be doped up.

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    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychic Missile View Post
    Based on the evidence I've read, I believe transwomen are born with brains that have an innate female identity. I also believe that men and women are on opposite ends of a spectrum rather than exist as a binary because of the many observable atypical expressions of sex characteristics. Finally, I believe that transitioning can be helpful in treating people with dysphoria, and generally trust doctors to make that determination. I'm not setting up an argument here, like I said I have no interest in debating whether trans people should transition or whether transpeople are truly the sex they identify as, I'm just giving you an idea of where I'm coming from and why I don't buy into push-back against transitioning/trans acceptance. It also isn't relevant to the point of contention.
    I understand this is your belief. But so you understand, I regard this as a form of misogyny that belittles and demeans women. I strongly suspect most women agree with my view rather than yours. And hatred based on an innate trait like sex deserves to be pushed back against.



    What about it specifically is insulting or derogatory?
    The strong implication that we're somehow a category of our own gender - similar to the 'not black enough' garbage. Also, it implies something unsavory about simply being a woman.



    Hormones (and receptors) are what allow for men to gain muscle mass so easily, that's why I'm focusing on it as the differentiator. Any other advantage would be indistinguishable from, or lesser than, beneficial genetic mutations.
    This is untrue - no woman is born with the capability of gaining the same amount of muscle fiber (mass is not the important part) that a man is born with - and mutation does not produce women that are as strong as men. Hormones do not change muscle fiber - and the more you got, the stronger you can get.

    The purpose of doping is to increase testosterone/androgens, so a transwoman who has completed HRT would, by any definition, not be doped up.
    He would, as I stated, be doping down but would never reach female physiology. He'd still end up stronger and having greater endurance than even the most extreme examples of doped up women.

    Any way you look at it, it's just men trying to steal from women. Welcome back to the 1950s - only they weren't trying to be jerks.

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  8. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychic Missile View Post
    I've been lurking and been judicial in what threads I involve myself with. It's been especially boring since every thread in Civics has been about the impeachment hearings.
    Oh good golly yes. It's all been about impeachment and as that's a subject I don't know much about, nor particularly care much about*, I've been mostly ignoring those. I'll look in some occasionally to keep up but usually I don't have much to say.

    That said, I still find letting "transwomen" compete against actual physical women to be completely absurd. There's being accommodating, and then there's just plain losing your head. Let's just integrate the sports entirely if we're going to allow that.

    *My House district is so liberal the Democrat will win no matter what, there's no Senate election this year, and I wasn't going to vote for Trump or any of the Democrat candidates in the main presidential electiohn, so what does it matter to me in all honesty? Since my actions in the 2020 election won't change whether Trump is completely innocent in this matter or if he's guilty as guilty can be, I can't muster up any reason to care.
    Last edited by Terraceth; 11-28-2019 at 10:32 PM.

  9. #97
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    I understand this is your belief. But so you understand, I regard this as a form of misogyny that belittles and demeans women. I strongly suspect most women agree with my view rather than yours. And hatred based on an innate trait like sex deserves to be pushed back against.

    The strong implication that we're somehow a category of our own gender - similar to the 'not black enough' garbage. Also, it implies something unsavory about simply being a woman.
    Wow. That's nuts.

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    tWebber Psychic Missile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    I understand this is your belief. But so you understand, I regard this as a form of misogyny that belittles and demeans women. I strongly suspect most women agree with my view rather than yours. And hatred based on an innate trait like sex deserves to be pushed back against.
    Does your objection to transwomen athletes competing stem from your opinion that transitioning is misogynistic or the idea that they have a physical advantage?

    The strong implication that we're somehow a category of our own gender - similar to the 'not black enough' garbage. Also, it implies something unsavory about simply being a woman.
    Could you elaborate? I just see "cis" as a synonym for "non-trans", so I'm having a difficult time following your logic.

    This is untrue - no woman is born with the capability of gaining the same amount of muscle fiber (mass is not the important part) that a man is born with - and mutation does not produce women that are as strong as men. Hormones do not change muscle fiber - and the more you got, the stronger you can get.
    I'm not saying that a genetic mutation could lead to a woman having muscles comparable to a man, I'm saying that transwomen who have gone through HRT should not have any further advantage* than those with beneficial genetic mutations. For example, among other mutations, Michael Phelps produces about half the lactic acid of the general population. If a woman had that mutation, she would have an advantage greater than any that transwomen are said to have. To be specific, when I'm talking about hormones, I'm talking about testosterone levels being associated with hypertrophy. Sarcopenia is similar enough to HRT that the idea of transwomen having reduced muscle mass should not be controversial.

    *I believe they don't have any advantage, but even if they do, it is so slight so as to be overshadowed by those with beneficial mutations.

    He would, as I stated, be doping down but would never reach female physiology. He'd still end up stronger and having greater endurance than even the most extreme examples of doped up women.

    Any way you look at it, it's just men trying to steal from women. Welcome back to the 1950s - only they weren't trying to be jerks.
    The goal of HRT is for transwomen to have testosterone levels within the normal range for women. Why do you think this isn't possible?

  11. #99
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychic Missile View Post
    Does your objection to transwomen athletes competing stem from your opinion that transitioning is misogynistic or the idea that they have a physical advantage?



    Could you elaborate? I just see "cis" as a synonym for "non-trans", so I'm having a difficult time following your logic.



    I'm not saying that a genetic mutation could lead to a woman having muscles comparable to a man, I'm saying that transwomen who have gone through HRT should not have any further advantage* than those with beneficial genetic mutations. For example, among other mutations, Michael Phelps produces about half the lactic acid of the general population. If a woman had that mutation, she would have an advantage greater than any that transwomen are said to have. To be specific, when I'm talking about hormones, I'm talking about testosterone levels being associated with hypertrophy. Sarcopenia is similar enough to HRT that the idea of transwomen having reduced muscle mass should not be controversial.

    *I believe they don't have any advantage, but even if they do, it is so slight so as to be overshadowed by those with beneficial mutations.



    The goal of HRT is for transwomen to have testosterone levels within the normal range for women. Why do you think this isn't possible?
    Just growing up male would endow them with a larger skeletal system and size than the average woman. Hormones won't fix that. And most transwomen retain their musculature also to a greater extent than an natural woman. Just look at the athletes we are talking about.

  12. #100
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Transgender activist who still has male genitalia is 'shocked,' 'confused,' 'hurt' after being turned away by gynecologist

    Jessica Yaniv a transgender activist who made headlines earlier this year after filing numerous human rights complaints against salons in Canada that refused to wax Yaniv's still-male genitalia has raised a new stink.

    It appears Yaniv is miffed that a gynecology office apparently refused service to the transgender activist...


    Jessica Yaniv @trustednerd

    So a gynaecologist office that I got referred to literally told me today that "we don't serve transgender patients."

    And me, being me, I'm shocked.. and confused... and hurt.

    Are they allowed to do that, legally? Isn't that against the college practices? @cpsbc_ca

    How did folks respond?

    As you might imagine, Yaniv's complaint on social media was met with what one might call rabid annoyance:

    "That's because you are a MAN!"
    "You're playing make believe. Real doctors don't have time for that foolishness."
    "You need a psychiatrist and a rubber room."
    "You should sue them. I can represent you because I self-ID as a lawyer. Only $10k an hour. Up front."
    "So a car mechanic that I got referred to literally told me today that 'we don't service nuclear submarines.' And me, being me, I'm shocked.. and confused... and hurt. Are they allowed to do that, legally?"
    "My gyno refuses to give me a prostate exam. Says I don't need one. I'm shocked, confused and hurt."
    "My local art gallery refused to change the oil in my car. Can they legally do that? Should I sue?"
    "Awww desperately seeking someone to sue again."
    https://www.theblaze.com/news/transg...or-complaining
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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