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Thread: Men can get pregnant too...

  1. #11
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    I knew it! I'm really a cute kitten trapped in a cute human!!!

    Except on puppy days, of course.

  2. #12
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Iím a box of rocks

  3. #13
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Iím a box of rocks
    You faker! You turned into bacon years ago!

  4. #14
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Iím a box of rocks
    Well. That explains a lot.



    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

  5. Amen Teallaura amen'd this post.
  6. #15
    tWebber firstfloor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaFille View Post
    A serious question for you. What do you think of human beings who believe they are animals? A cat for instance.
    Human beings have no idea of what itís like to be a cat or any other species apart from their own. At best, a human can imitate a cat. Some people become obsessed by the imitation and will change their appearance. They are never a cat.

  7. #16
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    I knew it! I'm really a cute kitten trapped in a cute human!!!

    Except on puppy days, of course.
    So when Elvis sang "You ain't nothing but a hound dog" he meant it literally?

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

  8. #17
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firstfloor View Post
    Human beings have no idea of what itís like to be a cat or any other species apart from their own. At best, a human can imitate a cat. Some people become obsessed by the imitation and will change their appearance. They are never a cat.
    Couldn't it be likewise argued that they have no idea what it's like to be a different sex apart from their own? At best someone can imitate the opposite sex?

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

  9. Amen mossrose, Cerebrum123, Teallaura amen'd this post.
  10. #18
    tWebber firstfloor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Couldn't it be likewise argued that they have no idea what it's like to be a different sex apart from their own? At best someone can imitate the opposite sex?
    I expect that some people do imitate. It is also feasible that female brains inhabit male bodies, and vice versa. Only the individual, knows what they are.
    ďI think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.Ē ― Oscar Wilde
    ďYou can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.Ē ― Anne Lamott
    ďAnd if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existenceĒ ― Bertrand Russell

  11. #19
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    I know. They fail to accept that while a man might think like a woman, or a woman might think like a man, they are men and women because of what they are physically, not how they think. Male and Female are physical attributes that in most cultures are also closely linked to a set of behaviors. But the behaviors don't define the biological sex of a living entity. And the imagination does not magically change physical reality and make a women have an XY chromosome, and imagination does not give a man XX chromosomes. And while there can be some physical ambiguity, that is not the case they are talking about.
    I used to have a similarly unsympathetic view toward trans people, but over the last several years as I have learned more relevant facts, my view has shifted to being more sympathetic toward them.

    Firstly, as you mention, there can be physical ambiguity. And as scientists have learned more and more about how biology and chromosomes and hormones work, they've discovered more and more types of physical ambiguities there can be. Here's a chart of the scientific possibilities:



    At either end, the dotted columns represent the standard 'male' and 'female' physical development, with everything in between being the various possible physical variations which lead to something different to a standard physical male/female body. As you can see there is a lot of variation.

    I tend to assume (though I might be wrong to do so) that most conservatives here would 100% agree that it's reasonable / loving / Christian / kind / just / fair / the-right-thing-to-do to treat anyone who falls into the middle areas of that chart with compassion, decency, understanding, politeness, generosity, both in our own treatment of them as individuals and with regard to the way we would want society as a whole to treat them. We could have a discussion about exactly what that means in practice, but perhaps we can simply agree to something like: "Everyone agrees that there are people in our society who objectively physically and scientifically do not fit well into binary and exclusive male vs female categories. Though those male/female categories are founded in biology, that same biology means there are sometimes exceptions. We should treat such people with decency and respect, and make allowances for them when necessary, and the incompleteness of those categories may be worth bearing in mind when we use them."

    Secondly, perhaps for the above reason, perhaps for other reasons, the majority of human cultures in history appear to have made allowances for people to opt-out of the male/female gender dichotomy. This appears to have been more present in cultures that adhered tightly to gender-defined behavioral roles, giving people who did not feel those roles fit them the ability to opt out and label themselves within their community of being of a 3rd, 4th, or 5th gender (depending on the culture and its norms), while cultures that placed less emphasis on gender distinctions appear to have made less allowance for voluntarily opting out of the binary gender labels. (The common patterns seem to be that for societies with 3 genders it was "male/female/other", with 4 it was "male/female/trans-male/trans-female" or "male/female/other-born-male/other-born-female", and with 5 it was "male/female/trans-male/trans-female/none")

    Since a lot of these cultures were historical and such practices were stamped out by European or Islamic colonization, we are limited to historical documents in many instances to try to piece together how a given culture understood these gender roles, though some persist into the present day. In most of these cultures, from what I can understand, the person was not placed in the 3rd through 5th gender at birth due to their parents/society determining they had physical abnormalities that were outside of typical male/female, but rather most or all of the time the person would make a decision as a teenager or adult to opt out of the male/female norms and into the 3rd through 5th gender (depending of which of those options were available to them in their culture and which they wanted to be). Typically in cultures with more than 2 genders, a person was eligible to marry anyone not of the same gender as themselves, hence this cultural construct seems to have been commonly used by people in these societies who wished to have same-sex marriages. Many of these cultures viewed people of the 3rd through 5th genders as magical (they were often the tribe's shaman), spiritual (they were sometimes considered to have both a male and female spirit residing within them, hence they had double the spirit-ness of a normal person), or special, and marriage with them was often considered lucky. This pattern was regularly observed by early European explorers in cultures across Africa, the Americas, Asia, and the pacific.

    So we can certainly say that human society is perfectly capable of functioning with an idea of gender that is more expansive than a strict male/female dichotomy. In fact, it appears that having more than 2 genders has been the norm in human history, and that it is Europe of the last 1000 years that is unusual in having 2 and only 2 genders. Most other continents, people groups, and societies, have had a more diverse approach to gender identities.


    If we can agree on the above (can we?), then we can consider the question of what, if anything, should be done about those people in our society who are physically and biological male / female but who want to change / opt-out of the applicable male/female gender label and either use the other one instead or some other label (trans-male, trans-female, none / agender), and often change their bodies to conform with the typical looks of the gender they wish to change to? I don't see any obvious reason why we shouldn't be kind and generous to these people and give them the option of opting-out of their birth gender the way most people have had in most human cultures for the past several millennia. I don't really see any reason to oppose them doing this if they wish. In your post you simply stated that they have bodies of a certain biological sex. I agree, they do. Your view seemed to be that it started and ended there. But that misses the point: The question is whether or not it's useful / practical / kind / helpful / loving for our culture to adopt the common cultural behavioral pattern where people can opt out of their birth gender, take a different gender role and make changes to their bodies. Saying their birth gender comes from their biological sex is certainly true, but doesn't address the question.
    Last edited by Starlight; 11-21-2019 at 02:56 AM.

  12. #20
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaFille View Post
    People are their brains (or minds) not their body, although a body can be male or female.
    A serious question for you. What do you think of human beings who believe they are animals? A cat for instance.
    I tend to agree with FF on this one, that people's identity is linked to their minds not their bodies.

    Consider, for example, of the experiments with head-transplants where scientists have managed to transfer the head of one animal onto the body of another one. If my head was to be grafted onto a body of a different sex, I would not be very happy about the situation, because part of how I view myself is as a male, and I wouldn't be particularly thrilled to be in a female's body.

    I think, from what we know of brain development, that the brain indeed has masculine/feminine features just as the body does. So presumably I have a brain that is physically male just as I have a body that is physically male, and if my brain were to be put in a scanner in front of a doctor who knew what they were looking for, they could say "that's a male". So in that sense, a statement that "my brain has a sense that it is male" might totally validly reflect a physical observable scientific truth about the brain itself - that the brain indeed had gone through a normal male developmental process and had masculine physical features. It is probably evolutionarily advantageous for an animal to have an understanding of its own sex, and so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the brain has built into it an understanding of its own sex, based on its own developmental process. e.g. the cells if they are exposed to testosterone during development might start growing masculine parts of the brain, and imprinting in the neurons "you are male".

    Because biology is complicated and what happens inside the womb is complicated, it can happen that some parts of any person might have different DNA to their other parts. This is called mosaicism. So it can happen that some parts of a person's body are male in the sense that the cells in them have the XY chromosomes, and some parts of that same person's body are female in the sense that the cells in them have the XX chromosomes. (Also, quite a number of hormonal and developmental disorders can derail the normal development process and mean parts of a person's body don't develop in a way that would usually be consistent with their chromosomes.) So it is perfectly scientifically possible that a person's brain be female in a scientific biological sense of XX chromosomes in the cells etc, while the rest of the body that the brain is in be scientifically biologically male in the sense of XY chromosomes in the cells. (Leaving aside whatever hormonal complexities might result) So it is possible to get a brain that is scientifically male inside a body that is scientifically female, or vice versa. And if the brain has hard-coded a self-identity during development, that self-identity in the brain won't match to the physical gender of the rest of the body. This makes sense to me as a possible explanation for why some people feel like their body's sex doesn't match what their brain is telling them their sex ought to be.

    I am, however, not aware of any scientifically possible way a brain of a cat can develop inside a human body.

    So if someone says their brain has a strong identity to a biological sex different to the rest of their body, it may well be possible that their brain is in some true and meaningful scientific sense a different sex to that of their body, and that their sense of identity is accurate. (That said, even if their brain's sense of self-identity is inaccurate, I don't really see any inherent problem with a person simply wanting to switch to a different gender's dress-code / behaviors / looks, if they feel it's important for them to do that.) If someone says their brain has a strong identity to a different species to the rest of their body, then I don't see any scientific truth that could link to. It can't be true or accurate. So the one is different to the other in the sense of possible vs impossible.
    Last edited by Starlight; 11-21-2019 at 02:53 AM.

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