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Thread: Men can get pregnant too...

  1. #21
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    I knew it! I'm really a cute kitten trapped in a cute human!!!

    Except on puppy days, of course.
    Cute?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  2. #22
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Cute?
    I would post her picture, but I prefer to wake up tomorrow.

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  3. Amen Teallaura amen'd this post.
  4. #23
    tWebber firstfloor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I’m a box of rocks
    Good to see you back Sparko.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” ― Anne Lamott
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell

  5. Amen Teallaura, Sparko amen'd this post.
  6. #24
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    I used to have a similarly unsympathetic view toward trans people, but over the last several years as I have learned more relevant facts, my view has shifted to being more sympathetic toward them.

    Firstly, as you mention, there can be physical ambiguity. And as scientists have learned more and more about how biology and chromosomes and hormones work, they've discovered more and more types of physical ambiguities there can be. Here's a chart of the scientific possibilities:



    At either end, the dotted columns represent the standard 'male' and 'female' physical development, with everything in between being the various possible physical variations which lead to something different to a standard physical male/female body. As you can see there is a lot of variation.

    I tend to assume (though I might be wrong to do so) that most conservatives here would 100% agree that it's reasonable / loving / Christian / kind / just / fair / the-right-thing-to-do to treat anyone who falls into the middle areas of that chart with compassion, decency, understanding, politeness, generosity, both in our own treatment of them as individuals and with regard to the way we would want society as a whole to treat them. We could have a discussion about exactly what that means in practice, but perhaps we can simply agree to something like: "Everyone agrees that there are people in our society who objectively physically and scientifically do not fit well into binary and exclusive male vs female categories. Though those male/female categories are founded in biology, that same biology means there are sometimes exceptions. We should treat such people with decency and respect, and make allowances for them when necessary, and the incompleteness of those categories may be worth bearing in mind when we use them."

    Secondly, perhaps for the above reason, perhaps for other reasons, the majority of human cultures in history appear to have made allowances for people to opt-out of the male/female gender dichotomy. This appears to have been more present in cultures that adhered tightly to gender-defined behavioral roles, giving people who did not feel those roles fit them the ability to opt out and label themselves within their community of being of a 3rd, 4th, or 5th gender (depending on the culture and its norms), while cultures that placed less emphasis on gender distinctions appear to have made less allowance for voluntarily opting out of the binary gender labels. (The common patterns seem to be that for societies with 3 genders it was "male/female/other", with 4 it was "male/female/trans-male/trans-female" or "male/female/other-born-male/other-born-female", and with 5 it was "male/female/trans-male/trans-female/none")

    Since a lot of these cultures were historical and such practices were stamped out by European or Islamic colonization, we are limited to historical documents in many instances to try to piece together how a given culture understood these gender roles, though some persist into the present day. In most of these cultures, from what I can understand, the person was not placed in the 3rd through 5th gender at birth due to their parents/society determining they had physical abnormalities that were outside of typical male/female, but rather most or all of the time the person would make a decision as a teenager or adult to opt out of the male/female norms and into the 3rd through 5th gender (depending of which of those options were available to them in their culture and which they wanted to be). Typically in cultures with more than 2 genders, a person was eligible to marry anyone not of the same gender as themselves, hence this cultural construct seems to have been commonly used by people in these societies who wished to have same-sex marriages. Many of these cultures viewed people of the 3rd through 5th genders as magical (they were often the tribe's shaman), spiritual (they were sometimes considered to have both a male and female spirit residing within them, hence they had double the spirit-ness of a normal person), or special, and marriage with them was often considered lucky. This pattern was regularly observed by early European explorers in cultures across Africa, the Americas, Asia, and the pacific.

    So we can certainly say that human society is perfectly capable of functioning with an idea of gender that is more expansive than a strict male/female dichotomy. In fact, it appears that having more than 2 genders has been the norm in human history, and that it is Europe of the last 1000 years that is unusual in having 2 and only 2 genders. Most other continents, people groups, and societies, have had a more diverse approach to gender identities.


    If we can agree on the above (can we?), then we can consider the question of what, if anything, should be done about those people in our society who are physically and biological male / female but who want to change / opt-out of the applicable male/female gender label and either use the other one instead or some other label (trans-male, trans-female, none / agender), and often change their bodies to conform with the typical looks of the gender they wish to change to? I don't see any obvious reason why we shouldn't be kind and generous to these people and give them the option of opting-out of their birth gender the way most people have had in most human cultures for the past several millennia. I don't really see any reason to oppose them doing this if they wish. In your post you simply stated that they have bodies of a certain biological sex. I agree, they do. Your view seemed to be that it started and ended there. But that misses the point: The question is whether or not it's useful / practical / kind / helpful / loving for our culture to adopt the common cultural behavioral pattern where people can opt out of their birth gender, take a different gender role and make changes to their bodies. Saying their birth gender comes from their biological sex is certainly true, but doesn't address the question.
    Thanks for the serious reply. I can't address this quickly and do it justice. But I'll try to get to it later today.

    Jim
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  7. #25
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firstfloor View Post
    I expect that some people do imitate. It is also feasible that female brains inhabit male bodies, and vice versa. Only the individual, knows what they are.
    Or maybe what we label male behavior and female behavior overlap to varying degrees

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  8. #26
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I would post her picture, but I prefer to wake up tomorrow.


    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  9. #27
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    I tend to assume (though I might be wrong to do so) that most conservatives here would 100% agree that it's reasonable / loving / Christian / kind / just / fair / the-right-thing-to-do to treat anyone who falls into the middle areas of that chart with compassion, decency, understanding, politeness, generosity, both in our own treatment of them as individuals and with regard to the way we would want society as a whole to treat them. We could have a discussion about exactly what that means in practice, but perhaps we can simply agree to something like: "Everyone agrees that there are people in our society who objectively physically and scientifically do not fit well into binary and exclusive male vs female categories. Though those male/female categories are founded in biology, that same biology means there are sometimes exceptions. We should treat such people with decency and respect, and make allowances for them when necessary, and the incompleteness of those categories may be worth bearing in mind when we use them."
    Except it is not that simple. I don't think trans were even on our radar until there was a push to allow biological males in girls showers, bathrooms and dressing rooms. Allowing biological males to compete in women's sports, insuring that women will never win again, etc...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  10. #28
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Except it is not that simple. I don't think trans were even on our radar until there was a push to allow biological males in girls showers, bathrooms and dressing rooms. Allowing biological males to compete in women's sports, insuring that women will never win again, etc...
    Sounds like an actual, real war on wimmenfolk.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  11. Amen Teallaura amen'd this post.
  12. #29
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I don't think trans were even on our radar until...
    Just to be clear, the quoted part of my post you are replying to was referring specifically to intersex people - i.e. people who are scientifically not entirely male or female due to some chromosomal / hormonal / developmental disorder, and whose bodies are thus biologically not fully in accordance with either sex. That part of my post you quoted was not talking about trans people in general. I was saying that I think everyone can agree we should have kindness and love to those who find themselves in a situation where their bodies have developed unusually, and who don't fit perfectly into the male/female biological sex dichotomy. Your response, however, appears to be about trans people rather than intersex people.

    until there was a push to allow biological males in girls showers, bathrooms and dressing rooms.
    It's worth being clear that before any modern pushes by liberals on the subject, trans people would probably have been using whatever showers/bathrooms/dressing rooms that caused the least amount of upset to those around them. And that means that any trans people who looked more female than male, would have been using girls showers / bathrooms / dressing rooms.

    And that seems sensible to me, so I think conservatives are crazy for trying to force a person who looks physically male to be in the girls showers just because their birth certificate seems female - that's going to upset girls. Do you seriously want the law to legally force people who look male to be in women's bathrooms???

    Allowing biological males to compete in women's sports, insuring that women will never win again, etc...
    Are you a big women's-sports fan, or is this just a made-up gripe? I'm not sports fan at all, but I don't see a problem with sports having appropriate rules so that the women's sports aren't full of transgender people at the highest levels.
    Last edited by Starlight; 11-21-2019 at 12:42 PM.

  13. #30
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firstfloor View Post
    Human beings have no idea of what it’s like to be a cat or any other species apart from their own. At best, a human can imitate a cat. Some people become obsessed by the imitation and will change their appearance. They are never a cat.
    And you think you know what it's like to be a woman? So tell me, which was first for you, pumps or stilettos?

  14. Amen mossrose amen'd this post.

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