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Thread: The Ukraine scandal timeline Democrats... donít want America to see

  1. #141
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    The Quid pro quo is in the transcript, but not in a form that in isolation it shows the quid pro quo beyond a shadow of a doubt.
    It doesn't even show it beyond a reasonable doubt. In fact, it's not in the transcript at all without twisting things beyond any semblance of reality. Vindman tried to make the case with the absurd claim that President Zelensky is somehow subordinate to President Trump, and therefore whatever Trump said was a demand rather than a request.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
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  2. #142
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    I'm going to ask you not to reply to me if you don't have anything of substance to say.
    I'll point out that RTT responded to a post similarly lacking in substance by noting the irony of you accusing others of what you so frequently do yourself. If you don't want personal attacks, then don't perpetrate them yourself.
    I know you'll ignore me. I just want to be on record as to your abuse of power as a moderator to badger members of the community to whom your only posted content is belligerence and who would otherwise put you on ignore.
    Woah there, big fella. You sort of missed the step where she ignored your request to stop responding to you before leveling your scurrilous accusation.
    I would also like to request a change in TWEB rules. As moderators (oxymoron in this case) a person should serve to reduce the hostile interactions and maintain site decorum. Implicit in that, I would think, is a responsibility not to use or engage in ad hominem or personal attacks on individual members.
    Duly noted. Your actions lately are not likely to generate much sympathy toward your point of view, for which you have only yourself to blame. It is YOUR choice to interpret nearly any opposition to your point of view as an attack and YOUR choice to respond in kind. Those who cannot tolerate "attacks" should not be picking fights.

    Would you like me to no longer respond to you? That can be arranged.
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  3. #143
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Yeah, I think it was pretty much explained by one of the talking heads that EVERY foreign policy issue is a "quid pro quo" of sorts, because we don't just give out aid willy-nilly, and we're always attempting to bring about a change in the behavior of both our friends and our enemies.
    True, but it's also morally and ethically wrong for Trump to do this for personal reasons (and potentially illegal, haven't really researched federal law on this). If he did it for some tangible benefit to the country as a whole, I'd have no problem with it. Trump toyed with the national security of both the USA and Ukraine to extort help to win an election. He's completely morally bankrupt.

    I'm honestly concerned that American evangelicals are allowing our moral authority in the eyes of our secular countrymen to be eroded by staunchly supporting someone like Trump. I don't always think Christians should care what the lost think of us....but it's hard to engage in witnessing and apologetics to people who think you are morally bankrupt compared to themselves.

    It's totally possible for us to vote for him for strategic political reasons and still cry fowl when he does wrong.
    Last edited by myth; 11-25-2019 at 10:26 AM.
    "We see unmistakably the sort of universe in which we have all along been living, and must come to terms with it. If we had foolish un-Christian hopes about human culture, they are now shattered. If we thought we were building up a heaven on earth, if we looked for something that would turn the present world from a place of pilgrimage into a permanent city satisfying the soul of man, we are disillusioned, and not a moment too soon." - C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory

  4. Amen Juvenal amen'd this post.
  5. #144
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myth View Post
    If withholding the aid for personal political reasons is is illegal -- then the statement is also documented evidence of a criminal conspiracy. Stop just dismissing it because you don't like it. If someone walked out in front of the press conference and said "I just murdered my wife"....you imagine that statement would not be admissible in court? lol
    By that same logic, a killer protesting his innocence in front of the news cameras is also admissible.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  6. #145
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    By that same logic, a killer protesting his innocence in front of the news cameras is also admissible.
    Potentially. But people always claim innocence -- so what weight would a jury give the statement?

    On the other hand, people rarely (rarely, not never) admit to crimes they didn't do. So how much weight would a jury give that statement?
    "We see unmistakably the sort of universe in which we have all along been living, and must come to terms with it. If we had foolish un-Christian hopes about human culture, they are now shattered. If we thought we were building up a heaven on earth, if we looked for something that would turn the present world from a place of pilgrimage into a permanent city satisfying the soul of man, we are disillusioned, and not a moment too soon." - C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory

  7. #146
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myth View Post
    True, but it's also morally and ethically wrong for Trump to do this for personal reasons....
    Not ignoring the rest of your post - you often make great points, and I'm glad you're around. On this point, though, if it were ONLY for personal reasons, there's be a problem. If the 'quid pro quo' was in the national interest, AND happened to be a personal benefit -- sometimes that happens.

    IF (for example) I'm calling for an investigation of an abuse of previous funding or appropriation of military materiel to or by a foreign government, and that investigation happens to expose misdeeds of a campaign rival, so be it.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since youíve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?Ē

  8. #147
    tWebber firstfloor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Da!
    Yes, try not get pwned by Putin. You are hanging by a thread.
    ďI think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.Ē ― Oscar Wilde
    ďYou can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.Ē ― Anne Lamott
    ďAnd if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existenceĒ ― Bertrand Russell

  9. #148
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myth View Post
    As the police, I can tell you that if you are truly innocent -- this is an excellent way to get yourself arrested, charged, and probably found not guilty while saddling yourself with a ton of lawyer debt, simply because you were too paranoid to talk to the police. It's stupid to do if you have nothing to hide. As I tell people all the time: I can't make you talk to me. But if you choose not to, the case doesn't magically go away. I have to make a decision about what to do based on only one side of the story. If you choose not to clear things up, then the consequences are also on you.
    In that case, the police better come with something better than "We just want to talk." And you'll want a lawyer at your side regardless so that you don't inadvertently talk yourself into trouble.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  10. #149
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Not ignoring the rest of your post - you often make great points, and I'm glad you're around. On this point, though, if it were ONLY for personal reasons, there's be a problem. If the 'quid pro quo' was in the national interest, AND happened to be a personal benefit -- sometimes that happens.

    IF (for example) I'm calling for an investigation of an abuse of previous funding or appropriation of military materiel to or by a foreign government, and that investigation happens to expose misdeeds of a campaign rival, so be it.
    This scenario is getting flipped around to the point that it is being implied that Biden is immune to investigation for prior acts simply because he is a potential opponent to Trump in 2020.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  11. #150
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    It doesn't even show it beyond a reasonable doubt. In fact, it's not in the transcript at all without twisting things beyond any semblance of reality. Vindman tried to make the case with the absurd claim that President Zelensky is somehow subordinate to President Trump, and therefore whatever Trump said was a demand rather than a request.
    Given what we know, it most certainly does. Trump was clearly pinning Zelensky down over the investigations holding the aid until such time as Zelensky committed publicly to the investigations. To deny that is to deny reality. As was said I think by myth, at this point, your argument should tack some tack along the lines there was nothing wrong with him doing it. But a shakedown over aid is EXACTLY what he was doing.
    He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

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