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Thread: Majority of Republicans polled think Trump better than Lincoln

  1. #101
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I don't agree with that definition at all. There's nothing about conservatism (politically and morally speaking) that implies stagnation.
    I didn't see it as stagnation, but as keeping traditional values and not allowing the liberals to do all their moronic social engineering.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  2. #102
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronson View Post
    It is justified "stagnation" when change isn't called for.

    Would you mind defining the term as you understand it?
    To me it means actively promoting and defending traditional moral values.

    In American football, a coach who gets the lead and then tries to manage the game to keep the other team from winning is considered "conservative", but I don't think that translates well to social policy. In my opinion, a real conservative is someone who "runs the score up", as it were, and leaves his opponents so far behind that they have no hope of ever catching up. For too long, conservatives in the US have tried to play the game by keeping one step ahead of the liberals when we should have been sprinting for the goal line instead, leaving our opponents in the dust.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  3. #103
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronson View Post
    I assumed it was meant as "useless since it is subjective".



    Seems like they all do that.



    For some reason, the John Birch Society was trying to get me to join their organization in the 1980s (I don't know why they targeted me). But judging by the literature they were leaving at my door, they think most people to their left are commie sympathizers.



    He was enforcing the Constitution.



    Huh? Care to elaborate?
    Nixon was considered a conservative in the 1960 and 68 elctions, and arguably considered the standard bearer of the Republican party. He rose to prominence for his role in combating communism. After China fell to Mao, Nixon helped lead the charge against the red and lavender threats in the Unamerican Activities subcommittee and and as right hand man for the McCarthy hearing, along with the Pumpkin Papers fiasco (Whitaker Chambers was a communist).

    Some cast doubt on Nixon's bona fides as a conservative.

    Yes he was enforcing the constitution. But it was a bold move to use Army troops. Eisenhower prepared the ground before sending in the 101 div to Little Rock. He consulted with his staff, the Army staff, and talked to many politicians so that it would not blow up in his face. The principle of states rights as secondary to federal prerogatives was not settled, in may ways Eisenhower settled it at Little Rock.

    He federalized the Arkansas National Guard, stripping it of it legal status. (in order to get them to stand down, they were moved away from the school). I do not know if that was allowed under law.

    Governor Orval Faubus called up the Guard at the beginning of September to block the black students. After Eisenhower called in the Army, there was still the possibility that Army troops would oppose National Guard and local cotizens. It was a tense situation.
    Last edited by simplicio; 12-06-2019 at 08:01 AM.

  4. #104
    tWebber Ronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    Nixon was considered a conservative in the 1960 and 68 elctions,
    He was running against Kennedy and Johnson. Of course he was considered conservative.

    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    and arguably considered the standard bearer of the Republican party. He rose to prominence for his role in combating communism. After China fell to Mao, Nixon helped lead the charge against the red and lavender threats in the Unamerican Activities subcommittee and and as right hand man for the McCarthy hearing, along with the Pumpkin Papers fiasco (Whitaker Chambers was a communist).

    Some cast doubt on Nixon's bona fides as a conservative.
    None of that made Nixon a standard bearer of conservatism. With the exception of maybe Carter (who was strong on appeasement), Democrats have always been just as adamant against communism as Republicans.

  5. #105
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I didn't see it as stagnation, but as keeping traditional values and not allowing the liberals to do all their moronic social engineering.
    But leaving existent moronic social engineering in place?

  6. #106
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Social conservatism.

    Fiscal conservatism.

    Political conservatism.

    Judicial conservatism.

    Theological conservatism.

    Foreign policy conservatism.

    ALL DIFFERENT.


    How are we supposed to communicate meaningfully yet concisely?
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Nationalist.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

  7. #107
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    But leaving existent moronic social engineering in place?
    Not all social engineering is bad. The greatest social engineering program the US has attempted is the civil rights initiatives, including the federal anti lynching bill.

    Conservatives generally opposed those. They violated the conservative tenets of local control (or subsidiarity and states rights). We can look back and recognize those things as consistent with modern views of conservatism, but we often forget that contemporary conservatives looked at those and recoiled.

    Few conservatives want those social engineering initiatives rolled back.

  8. #108
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    Social conservatism.

    Fiscal conservatism.

    Political conservatism.

    Judicial conservatism.

    Theological conservatism.

    Foreign policy conservatism.

    ALL DIFFERENT.


    How are we supposed to communicate meaningfully yet concisely?
    No commonalities among those items in the list?

    We often confuse conservatism as a set of policies or a platform which is static across time and place.

  9. #109
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    There's nothing about conservatism (politically and morally speaking) that implies stagnation.
    I think stagnation, or to put a more positive tone on it, preservation (or literally 'conservation' referring to culture / politics rather than the environment), is a reasonable definition of conservatism. Conservatism is often about defending the status quo, it is often about believing that the culture that has been handed down to us from history has been tested and found to be good, and about believing that daring to deviate from what has been handed down to us could have dangerous consequences, and about opposing changes to it.

    Liberalism and progressivism, by contrast about trying to make 'improvements' and make 'moral progress', and questioning what has been handed down to us from history and challenging it to see if it can be improved.

    And, given those definitions we can realize that if liberals of one general do achieve a significant change, despite opposition from conservatives of their generation, then in the next generations the conservatives of that era will defend the changes the earlier liberals had made. Each generation of conservatives will try and conserve the culture that was present when they were young. So even if one generation of conservatives fought to conserve the practice of slavery, when liberals won and abolished the practice, the generations of conservatives that came later will agree that slavery is bad. Looking through history, the moral progress that has been made by liberals has rarely been subsequently undone, because conservatives of subsequent generations typically want to defend the status quo of their era.

  10. #110
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    But leaving existent moronic social engineering in place?
    Yes, I'm sure you believe that's exactly what I meant.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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