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  • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
    Except I am arguing that the excessive regulations are inconsequential on the impact on the price of housing. Other factors account for it, notably inflation and supply and demand (free market).

    One reason I commented on it is that it has become common for conservatives to rail against regulations. But then we are left with the question of which regulations. I can't think of any regulations, common across a region, which can be repealed.
    I’m a native of California so I’ve seen what happens first hand. While a lot of the problems, are other factors, this points out a big one:

    Several factors have together caused severe constraints on the construction of new housing: community involvement in the permitting process allows current residents who oppose new construction (often referred to as NIMBYs) to lobby their city council to deny new development; environmental laws are often abused by local residents and others to block or gain concessions from new development (making it more costly or too expensive to be profitable); greater local tax revenues from hotels, commercial, and retail development vs. residential incentivize cities to permit less residential; density restrictions (e.g. single-family zoning) and high land cost conspire to keep land and housing prices high; and construction costs are greater because of high impact fees, and often developments are only approved if union labor is used.
    .....

    But starting in 1970, three major forces caused housing prices to increase dramatically: increased concern for the environment, (which led to environmental laws and designating land for preservation and not development), land use restrictions limiting housing density (zoning many areas to single-family homes, or to at most two stories), and community involvement in the development process (which allows current—but not future—residents a say in land use decisions.)

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cali...using_shortage


    So, large population jump + large job creation + laws and regulations, curbing housing development = housing crisis.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

    Comment


    • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
      I’m a native of California so I’ve seen what happens first hand. While a lot of the problems, are other factors, this points out a big one:

      Several factors have together caused severe constraints on the construction of new housing: community involvement in the permitting process allows current residents who oppose new construction (often referred to as NIMBYs) to lobby their city council to deny new development; environmental laws are often abused by local residents and others to block or gain concessions from new development (making it more costly or too expensive to be profitable); greater local tax revenues from hotels, commercial, and retail development vs. residential incentivize cities to permit less residential; density restrictions (e.g. single-family zoning) and high land cost conspire to keep land and housing prices high; and construction costs are greater because of high impact fees, and often developments are only approved if union labor is used.
      .....

      But starting in 1970, three major forces caused housing prices to increase dramatically: increased concern for the environment, (which led to environmental laws and designating land for preservation and not development), land use restrictions limiting housing density (zoning many areas to single-family homes, or to at most two stories), and community involvement in the development process (which allows current—but not future—residents a say in land use decisions.)

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cali...using_shortage


      So, large population jump + large job creation + laws and regulations, curbing housing development = housing crisis.
      So those examples are not really about liberals (which started this segment of the discussion), rather it is about the apparent failure of local control of the decision making process. I did note the article used two examples which seem contradictory, the greater tax revenue from commercial properties, and the use of density restrictions. Towns which have density restrictions (large lot size) seldom want the hotel nearby.

      What would be a remedy, usurping local control and imposing the decisions of a higher authority?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
        Except I am arguing that the excessive regulations are inconsequential on the impact on the price of housing. Other factors account for it, notably inflation and supply and demand (free market).

        One reason I commented on it is that it has become common for conservatives to rail against regulations. But then we are left with the question of which regulations. I can't think of any regulations, common across a region, which can be repealed.
        Vapor barriers, virtually all efficiency regulations and reductions in insulation requirements.

        There's no reason 'best practices' must be required.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

        Quill Sword

        Comment


        • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
          Why? I think it accurate to say that those examples have become accepted, and we cannot imagine going back.

          The traditional values (referred to previously) mandated a separation of races to some extent. Few really knew whether full rights of citizenship could work out. Which is why civil rights ebbed and flowed throughout our history.

          Equality was long resisted; in health care, education, military, equality and equal access was deemed unworkable because the equality of nature was not recognized. Even as late as the fifties, hospitals in many cities had duplicate facilities and staff. The history of education is well known. The military resisted full integration, many thought it unworkable because there was no tradition of using black men as a fighting force was untried, the only examples were exceptions. (Even though each war, almost, had examples of black fighting units which acquitted themselves excellently. They were still the exception)

          Each step in the road to civil rights was an example of social engineering, and resisted because it was social engineering.
          No. Civil Rights is a separate matter - it corrects for errors (mostly by the SC - i.e. Plessey) where social engineering attempts to remake society.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Quill Sword

          Comment


          • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
            Mayne you have a point, so far the military has pretty much sided with the government. But they are an arm of the government.
            We're in agreement, good.

            Originally posted by simplicio View Post

            And Christians, conservative Christians, are heavily represented in the military. Which raises the question if a large institution can be influenced by Christian values by having Christians enter into the institution.
            You should also ask the same question about colleges, and how so many Christian kids who go in have their faith wrecked by the liberal values.
            Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
              You should also ask the same question about colleges, and how so many Christian kids who go in have their faith wrecked by the liberal values.
              It's mostly because kids are simply unequipped to deal with the arguments and ridicule of the liberal professors, which is a failure of parents and the church.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                It's mostly because kids are simply unequipped to deal with the arguments and ridicule of the liberal professors, which is a failure of parents and the church.
                It's cute that you think God's Not Dead is a documentary.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  No. Civil Rights is a separate matter - it corrects for errors (mostly by the SC - i.e. Plessey) where social engineering attempts to remake society.
                  The civil rights legislation was a massive social engineering program. Each piece was supported by groups like the NAACP because it would transform society enough to make the next incremental piece more likely.

                  The federal lynching law tried to usurp local judicial systems (specifically jury decisions), and were defeated. The most notable bill was the Dyer Bill.

                  Desegregation of the armed forces has many opponents. Some of the opposition was from overt racists, other opposition was from military leaders who questioned whether blacks could be effective. There was no history of mass use of black men as soldiers, each historical example relied on the exception of allowing blacks to serve in combat. The civil war, the Indian wars, WWI, and WWII each had highly decorated black units, but they were exceptions. The military's experience was that morale and discipline problems were worse in black units.

                  The 93d Division wears the blue Adrian helmet of the French army as their shoulder insignia, they were attached to the French Army rather than fight under American leadership. They acquitted the selves well. It was the intervention of men like WEB Duboise who persuaded the army to keep the unit (I think the 15th regiment) as fighting force, not a labor unit.

                  Truman desegregated the military with an executive order (and concluding with a quote from Lincoln in his speech to the NAACP, commenting privately that southerners would not approve of a Lincoln quote!).

                  The hospitals were desegregated over the objections of many whites who did not think it workable. The tying of hospital funding and health care funding to fulfilling federal mandates on desegregation was an experiment in social engineering. It also worked out.

                  Education was famously integrated through the Brown decision. But some southern school districts resisted and closed their public school system entirely. It took twenty years to shake out, the seventies had its bussing controversies. It also was an experiment in social engineering.

                  Plessy was not some imposed on the country by the court, Plessy upheld policies already in existence by states. Yes it is considered an erroneous decision. But it was a decision which accepted the policies enacted by states and localities. So the error is not the Supreme court's alone. The error, and blame, is shared by the democratic process in many areas of the country.

                  Plessy was decided in the late 19th century, a period when Jim Crow was replacing Reconstruction advances. The civil rights era of the fifties had the southern Democrats split forming the Dixiecrats, in response to federal encroachments on state prerogatives and their massive social engineering experiments.

                  Civil Rights was a massive social engineering experiment, done on an unprecedented scale. It upended the status quo through various federal inducements and threats. And its outcomes were not universally recognized at the time.
                  Last edited by simplicio; 12-12-2019, 03:37 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Psychic Moron View Post
                    It's cute that you think God's Not Dead is a documentary.
                    I've never seen it.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                      It's cute that you think God's Not Dead is a documentary.
                      Can you please demonstrate where MM ever indicated that?
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                        So those examples are not really about liberals (which started this segment of the discussion), rather it is about the apparent failure of local control of the decision making process. I did note the article used two examples which seem contradictory, the greater tax revenue from commercial properties, and the use of density restrictions. Towns which have density restrictions (large lot size) seldom want the hotel nearby.

                        What would be a remedy, usurping local control and imposing the decisions of a higher authority?
                        The state is ran by Democrats and many of these issues stem from state laws. Of course, the problem has gained more complexity because current owners don’t want housing prices to drop because they could lose a lot, if they do.
                        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                          The civil rights legislation was a massive social engineering program. Each piece was supported by groups like the NAACP because it would transform society enough to make the next incremental piece more likely.

                          The federal lynching law tried to usurp local judicial systems (specifically jury decisions), and were defeated. The most notable bill was the Dyer Bill.

                          Desegregation of the armed forces has many opponents. Some of the opposition was from overt racists, other opposition was from military leaders who questioned whether blacks could be effective. There was no history of mass use of black men as soldiers, each historical example relied on the exception of allowing blacks to serve in combat. The civil war, the Indian wars, WWI, and WWII each had highly decorated black units, but they were exceptions. The military's experience was that morale and discipline problems were worse in black units.

                          The 93d Division wears the blue Adrian helmet of the French army as their shoulder insignia, they were attached to the French Army rather than fight under American leadership. They acquitted the selves well. It was the intervention of men like WEB Duboise who persuaded the army to keep the unit (I think the 15th regiment) as fighting force, not a labor unit.

                          Truman desegregated the military with an executive order (and concluding with a quote from Lincoln in his speech to the NAACP, commenting privately that southerners would not approve of a Lincoln quote!).

                          The hospitals were desegregated over the objections of many whites who did not think it workable. The tying of hospital funding and health care funding to fulfilling federal mandates on desegregation was an experiment in social engineering. It also worked out.

                          Education was famously integrated through the Brown decision. But some southern school districts resisted and closed their public school system entirely. It took twenty years to shake out, the seventies had its bussing controversies. It also was an experiment in social engineering.

                          Plessy was not some imposed on the country by the court, Plessy upheld policies already in existence by states. Yes it is considered an erroneous decision. But it was a decision which accepted the policies enacted by states and localities. So the error is not the Supreme court's alone. The error, and blame, is shared by the democratic process in many areas of the country.

                          Plessy was decided in the late 19th century, a period when Jim Crow was replacing Reconstruction advances. The civil rights era of the fifties had the southern Democrats split forming the Dixiecrats, in response to federal encroachments on state prerogatives and their massive social engineering experiments.

                          Civil Rights was a massive social engineering experiment, done on an unprecedented scale. It upended the status quo through various federal inducements and threats. And its outcomes were not universally recognized at the time.
                          No, it isn't. I really don't think you understand what social engineering actually means.
                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                            As the joke goes:

                            The Army and Navy are military branches, the Air Force is a business, and the Marines are a cult.
                            Poor forgotten Coast Guard...
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                              It's cute that you think God's Not Dead is a documentary.
                              It's sad that you're so poorly informed that you think this is a valid argument.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                No, it isn't. I really don't think you understand what social engineering actually means.
                                I do understand what social engineering means, and am cognizant on how the term is used.

                                Many condemned the policies on gays in the military, and inclusion of women in combat jobs as social engineering. One argument against same sex marriage, and school curricula on gays, was that it was social engineering.

                                Desegregation of society, and society's institutions was not an organic and grass roots phenomenon. It was imposed, against the will of the electorate, and depended on the coercive power of the federal government.

                                The military is a bellwether, it leads society in some ways. Catholic and Mormon writers note the role wars play in acceptance of the religion by those otherwise opposed. It is the familiarity drawn from exposure to the individuals. And that is one reason the military played a significant role in the acceptance of civil rights. Only a decade after Truman's executive order, blacks played a disproportionate role in the Vietnam war.

                                Social engineering is the attempt to influence society, change behavior, attitudes and dispositions, to manage social change. One result of the civil rights initiatives was that there have been no real attempts to roll back the legal bases for civil rights, the battles are quibbling over small details, like the effects of voter id.

                                Maybe the way Plessy is viewed is indicative, it was a judicial error (like Dred Scott), but it was an error shared by many Americans, since it upheld existing policies. Plessy was a rejection of the social engineering forced by the Reconstruction amendments and policies. And the political backlash to the rejection of Plessy resulted in the modern conservative movement where Bob Jones and Dallas Theological play a significant role.
                                Last edited by simplicio; 12-13-2019, 03:09 AM.

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