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Ex 16-18 vs Num 11

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  • #31
    Originally posted by apostoli View Post
    Did YHWH sanction the statutory rape and adultery of Bathsheba, and the consequent murder of her husband?
    At least in America, "statutory rape" means having sex with someone unqualified to give consent as an adult, usually a young teenager. Bathsheba was already married, so it's hard to see how that term would apply to her. Perhaps it means something different in your country?

    Originally posted by apostoli View Post
    What was their "different job" according to scripture? Moses had already implemented the judges for administrative affairs and the levites for religious affairs, what is left in the governance of Moses' people for the 70 to do? Were they a police force that checked that the judges and religious leaders were doing their job correctly? If so, from scriptural and historical accounts of the judges and levitical system, they were a dismal failure. Jethro had advised Moses to delegate his day to day activities but he should preside over greater matters. Now from Numbers 11 we find Moses couldn't cope with the pressure so (speculatively) YHWH implemented a council of seventy elders. If it wasn't for Numbers 12 that scenario would seem to settle things (as long as we ignore the Israelites sojourn in the desert and the consequent appearance of the manna and the partridges and the consequential episode of Moses' delegating his power/s).
    Numbers 11 doesn't go into great detail about what the Seventy did with their Spirit shared-power, but the context of their appointment is that Moses was being inundated not with court cases, as in Exodus 18, but with personal attacks and gripes about the general state of the nation. That sounds like a different job than the job of sub-judges mediating disputes among the people, and it certainly would have taken more than seventy guys in Exodus 18 to fill the need for "chiefs of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens." (Exodus 18:21)

    Actually God did not ordain Saul he anointed him, in the same way that he (God) anointed the the pagan king Cyrus to conquer Israel and then rule over Israel in exile.
    "Ordain" means "to set in order" or "to choose." God chose to anoint Saul for a purpose.

    ps: I'm not aware of scripture ever depicting Saul as corrupt. Defective and self possessed possibly. corrupt - not that I can find.
    Fair enough, if you mean "corrupt" in the sense of being subject to bribery. I was using the term more generally to refer to his rebellion against God.

    Have a close read of the NT, whenever Jesus referred to the Law he always pointed to and quoted from the Decalogue. Whenever he referred to the Mosaic law he was highly critical.
    Jesus praises the two great commandments as the summation of the whole law which men must keep. They come from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18.

    As I suggested earlier, have a close read of Leviticus and you will find that Jesus' sacrifice is invalid under the Levitical rules. Probably why he is high priest according the order of Melchizedek and not counted amongst the Cohen of the Levites.
    That is true, but as I suggested earlier, you should "have a close read" of Hebrews, which describes the Levitical law not as an ungodly fabrication but as a once-commanded practice which God has seen fit to fulfill in Christ, rendering its further observance obsolete thereafter.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by RBerman View Post
      At least in America, "statutory rape" means having sex with someone unqualified to give consent as an adult, usually a young teenager. Bathsheba was already married, so it's hard to see how that term would apply to her. Perhaps it means something different in your country?
      Spain only recently changed their age of consent from 13 to 16yo for females. They are only a few decades different from some states in the USA where once the age of marriage was 9yo. So legalistically you might stand to give debate. However, David was in multiple breaches of the Decalogue, so he was in breach of God's Law (albeit probably not Moses' ordinances - somewhere here on TWEB there was a discussion of the ancient Jewish custom and in some parts of the world a current custom of marrying off 9 year olds to old men. Note that in Moses' ordinances all a man had to do was marry whomever he raped to get off scott free).

      In every country of the world statutory rape defines anything that is not allowed by common law. As is evidenced in multiple societies (eg: in the current news Pakistan and India) young girls are prime bait for any licentious male. If you read through Moses' ordinances he institutionalised such a viewpoint... Sharia law in the Muslim subjection of woman is very dependent on Moses' propositions. The Taliban and their law is simply Moses in action in modern times - if you support the idea that Moses' ordinances were God inspired then I must assume you are a supporter of the Taliban who perceive themselves as God inspired and thus are one of the few groups remaining who actually implement Moses' ordinances.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by apostoli View Post
        Spain only recently changed their age of consent from 13 to 16yo for females. They are only a few decades different from some states in the USA where once the age of marriage was 9yo. So legalistically you might stand to give debate. However, David was in multiple breaches of the Decalogue, so he was in breach of God's Law (albeit probably not Moses' ordinances - somewhere here on TWEB there was a discussion of the ancient Jewish custom and in some parts of the world a current custom of marrying off 9 year olds to old men. Note that in Moses' ordinances all a man had to do was marry whomever he raped to get off scott free).

        In every country of the world statutory rape defines anything that is not allowed by common law. As is evidenced in multiple societies (eg: in the current news Pakistan and India) young girls are prime bait for any licentious male. If you read through Moses' ordinances he institutionalised such a viewpoint... Sharia law in the Muslim subjection of woman is very dependent on Moses' propositions. The Taliban and their law is simply Moses in action in modern times - if you support the idea that Moses' ordinances were God inspired then I must assume you are a supporter of the Taliban who perceive themselves as God inspired and thus are one of the few groups remaining who actually implement Moses' ordinances.
        Those who support Moses are actually supporting the Taliban? Ladies and gentleman, I rest my case. Have fun in your thread.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by RBerman View Post
          Those who support Moses are actually supporting the Taliban? Ladies and gentleman, I rest my case. Have fun in your thread.
          The thread died ages ago when you contradicted yourself (I'll believe it only if it is in scripture) and then started to justify your opinion using idle speculations that have absolutely no support in scripture.

          Also you misrepresent my position. I do not advocate that "Those who support Moses are actually supporting the Taliban" but more precisely "Those who support Moses' ordinances as practical persuasions to an ordered society are actually supporting the Taliban, who to my knowledge are the only group that currently implements them to their full measure".

          Best you do a bit of historical research. In the western world many of Moses' ordinances influenced thought well into the early twentieth century (particularly in protestent dominated countries)...the total abrogation of his ordinances has been a slow process, only resolved through political processes (eg: the end of the usary laws is a major watermark. The advent of democracy, the emancipation of women and the end of slavery in all its forms are particular watermarks).

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          • #35
            More stupidity from apostoli.

            Typical.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
              More stupidity from apostoli.

              Typical.
              More illiteracy from foudroyant, who can't comprehend the discussion. Typical!!!

              Simply put, for foudroyant's benefit, the Taliban implement Moses ordinances, the rest of the world rejects them!!!! America and its allies (including my country) haVE HAD (DO HAVE) many a war to suppress the implementation of Moses' ordinances.

              Moses' ordinances promote the failed societies of Communism, Maoism, Socialism, Nazism, the Kibbutznik etc etc etc of the utopian and fanatical fringe... Thus as failed social paradigms are proven not to have any divine inspiration...

              ie: Moses ordinances were not inspired ny YHWH, but were politically conceived as a social intervention...

              I'm, happy for you to prove me wrong, but documented history supports my viewpoint. The onus is on you to prove my viewpoint is aberrant...

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              • #37
                1. Is the Pentateuch inspired? (Parts of it?)
                2. Was Moses called by God?

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  1. Is the Pentateuch inspired? (Parts of it?)
                  Why not? Sure!!! However, consider what that inspiration actually tells you! Imo, the general failure of mankind when left to their own devices. Intersestingly, have a read of Genesis 5, whilst Adam had many children, only one is said to have been in his image, and this individual is traced as the root of the Messianic linage. Can you name him?

                  Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  . Was Moses called by God?
                  So scripture tells us, and scripture tells us he was a failure in the performance of his duties, and imposed his personal opinions over and above the commandments of YHWH - to the extent that God prohibited him from entering the promised land...

                  Of interest: These days with modern transport you can travel the Sinai in less than a day. Refugees have in modern times demonstrated that, on foot alone, on average it might take three weeks (most of which is spent hiding from Bedouim bandits, slavers etc). So why did it take the Israelites 40 years to traverse such a small area. Scripture gives the answer, can you?
                  Last edited by apostoli; 06-15-2014, 12:53 AM.

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