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  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    You are not taking into account how the underlying implicit racial biases within our country causes certain policies to take on explicit racial differences in terms of effect, even if they are implemented without any explicit racially motivated goals. Sometimes policies are racist in effect, even if they are not racist in motive. Ignorance of how that can be the case only compounds the problem. And callous disregard for how that can be the case can be, and often is, a continuance of the racist history of our nation.

    Those affected by them don't know if the result was intentional or not, but given the racist history of the country, and the continuance of racist attitudes, those non-whites negatively affected have good reason to wonder about or even to doubt that aspect of it.
    It's worth noting that voting patterns today from one district to the next, can be predicted by something as historical as the prevalence of slavery in that district 160 years ago.

    Also the gradual transition in the Republican party over the last 60 years from blatant and open racism, to subtle racism, to 'dog whistles', is pretty well-documented. Though Trump has regressed them pretty massively from dog-whistles back to pretty open racism.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      America is a country with very large regional differences. A lot of Americans on this forum ignorantly assume their own personal experiences of their own life growing up in their particular location in America are representative of the country as a whole. They tend to have extremely biased viewpoints that skew to their own personal experiences, and have massive blindspots when it comes to many issues they are unaware of or that haven't impacted them personally. They tend to foolishly assume that they must know all about America just by virtue of living in it, and pretend that no foreigner no matter how well informed could ever possibly know as much as they do or more or have a more well-balanced and better overall view of their own country than they do. The Dunning-Krugers gets quite extreme at times.
      Yes, the Dunning-Krugers effect does get extreme and you just gave new meaning to it in post #650. The fact you don't even live here is absurdly disproportionate to the amount of blowhard opining you do about it and the sheer hypocritical accusation you leveled at seer who actually DOES live here. But by all means, bro, free speech.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        You are not taking into account how the underlying implicit racial biases within our country causes certain policies to take on explicit racial differences in terms of effect, even if they are implemented without any explicit racially motivated goals.
        By definition, if a policy has no racist goals, it is not a racist policy. Racism is about motivation or belief.

        Originally posted by dictionary.com
        1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.
        2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
        3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.


        Originally posted by oxmixmudd
        Sometimes policies are racist in effect, even if they are not racist in motive.
        That is, by definition, impossible. Policies can be discriminatory in effect, or can affect different groups differently, etc.

        We have words that accurately describe this situation, using 'racist' and 'racism' muddies the waters by attributing motive and belief to an action or policy where there is none. That's poor thinking and I believe contributes to a perception of racism where it may not exist.




        Originally posted by oxmixmudd
        Ignorance of how that can be the case only compounds the problem. And callous disregard for how that can be the case can be, and often is, a continuance of the racist history of our nation.

        Those affected by them don't know if the result was intentional or not, but given the racist history of the country, and the continuance of racist attitudes, those non-whites negatively affected have good reason to wonder about or even to doubt that aspect of it.

        And so racism as a problem in American society persists. Policies that are not racist are perceived as racist because we use language incorrectly and poorly. People who are not being discriminated against because of their race think that they are, because they have been taught that all discrimination, and all differences, are racially motivated.


        None of the above is denying that there is real racism - but if we call everything 'unfair' or 'uneven' "racism" then racism will never, and can never, end.
        ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          But all of those policies carelessly implemented can have massively negative and racially focused effect. And when a policy is implemented that adversely affects non-whites and benefits whites - even obviously so - what reason would a non-white have to believe that the policy was not in fact implemented with a racist goal to hurt or keep down those that are not white and already , as a group, operating in a less affluent, less privileged sub culture.
          They would have to investigate and see if the motive for the policy was actually racist. If they are going to see everything through racist-tinted glasses, then their lives are going to always be blighted by racism, whether it affects them in reality or not.

          Choosing to view everything that affects them negatively as a result of 'racism' is certainly NOT the way to end racism.


          When groups accuse other groups of racism when it's clearly not racism they undermine their own credibility when calling out actual racism. When whites are accused of racism when they do just about anything, they are going to eventually ignore cries of racism completely. Being called 'racist' merely because you are white becomes a badge of pride for some.
          ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
            They would have to investigate and see if the motive for the policy was actually racist. If they are going to see everything through racist-tinted glasses, then their lives are going to always be blighted by racism, whether it affects them in reality or not.

            Choosing to view everything that affects them negatively as a result of 'racism' is certainly NOT the way to end racism.


            When groups accuse other groups of racism when it's clearly not racism they undermine their own credibility when calling out actual racism. When whites are accused of racism when they do just about anything, they are going to eventually ignore cries of racism completely. Being called 'racist' merely because you are white becomes a badge of pride for some.
            This sort of response is a big part of the problem. It doesnt recognize that the responsibility for change rests mostly in the hands of those with the power. We, as a nation, have a responsibility to do the things that need to be done to right the centuries old wrongs that have produced the inequities that perpetuate the poverty, educational, and opportunity distinctions that follow racial lines. It is a self perpetuating system that requires intervention in order to change.
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              This sort of response is a big part of the problem. It doesnt recognize that the responsibility for change rests mostly in the hands of those with the power. We, as a nation, have a responsibility to do the things that need to be done to right the centuries old wrongs that have produced the inequities that perpetuate the poverty, educational, and opportunity distinctions that follow racial lines. It is a self perpetuating system that requires intervention in order to change.
              Agreed, like correcting liberal abortion laws, just to name one, that disproportionately kills colored babies, or racial infanticide. And then when leftist racists argue that those babies wouldn't be wanted by anyone anyway, we can then correct them on that too.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                Agreed, like correcting liberal abortion laws, just to name one, that disproportionately kills colored babies, or racial infanticide. And then when leftist racists argue that those babies wouldn't be wanted by anyone anyway, we can then correct them on that too.
                That is an interesting, but not untrue take on the point. Part of the reason more abortions occur in the african American community is that same legacy that puts them, on average, in positions of less opportunity than white Americans
                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  That is an interesting, but not untrue take on the point. Part of the reason more abortions occur in the african American community is that same legacy that puts them, on average, in positions of less opportunity than white Americans
                  Interesting indeed. I stated a racial fact. And then you try and counter it with a racial issue (a typical leftist echo chamber talking point -- and one could even argue a racist one) that is highly -- and I mean HIGHLY -- debatable, especially with the advances of technology in our western society. But that would likely completely derail the thread than it already is.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                    Interesting indeed. I stated a racial fact. And then you try and counter it with a racial issue (a typical leftist echo chamber talking point -- and one could even argue a racist one) that is highly -- and I mean HIGHLY -- debatable, especially with the advances of technology in our western society. But that would likely completely derail the thread than it already is.
                    I didn't try to counter it, I DID counter it. And you are starting to sound like some of the white supremicist rhetoric I grew up with from some of my relatives.
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      I didn't try to counter it, I DID counter it. And you are starting to sound like some of the white supremicist rhetoric I grew up with from some of my relatives.
                      Saying technology has created more opportunities for colored folks is racist?

                      Nah, to me a clear sign of racism is white liberals (typically the upper class ones) that love to look down on minorities as the helpless folk who don't have the means to better themselves (and like I said, whether they actually have the means or not is highly debatable) and thus need assistance from the more intelligent and resourceful racist white man. That in itself reeks of racism, and some of the most insidious kinds of racism because it's deviously cloaked as liberal social justice.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        What happened to your "common courtesy dictates that we exercise polite discretion?"
                        Nothing happened to my "common courtesy dictates that we exercise polite discretion", it is an essential component of a civil society.

                        Like not broad brushing most Christians with something they had no part in or supported?
                        The Jim Crow laws were widely supported (including by Christians) particularly in the southern states. The discrimination and segregation that had been institutionalized by them were (officially at least) only brought to an end a mere 50 years ago when President Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act. But simplicio is correct in that they have survived to this day in many forms by many people despite the Civil Rights Act.

                        You are such a hypocrite...
                        So much for polite discretion.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          Saying technology has created more opportunities for colored folks is racist?

                          Nah, to me a clear sign of racism is white liberals (typically the upper class ones) that love to look down on minorities as the helpless folk who don't have the means to better themselves (and like I said, whether they actually have the means or not is highly debatable) and thus need assistance from the more intelligent and resourceful racist white man. That in itself reeks of racism, and some of the most insidious kinds of racism because it's deviously cloaked as liberal social justice.
                          Okay, well, I guess I should have used the proper PC term "people of color" lest I trigger a meltdown and am accused of being a racist against my own race. So now the world can keep spinning I guess.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                            By definition, if a policy has no racist goals, it is not a racist policy.
                            What about a situation where a policy was created by people who were racist, and who intended the policy to have negative effects on black people, but where decades have passed since then and the same policy still exists but is being championed by different people who are not all aware of its racist origins and who themselves aren't personally racist? (That was Republican strategist Lee Atwater's explanation for how racism in the Republican party has diminished over the years, with later generations of Republicans inheriting the policies of the racist generations but not being racist themselves)

                            Does the policy remain 'racist' if its original intents are racist and it's effects if implemented would disproportionately harm races the original racists intended to harm / disproportionately help races the original races intended to help, even if the modern-day advocates of it aren't racist or don't know / don't care about the negative effects of the policy on particular races?

                            Because I personally struggle to have sympathy for people who's position boils down to: "I'm not personally racist, I just advocate a whole bunch of policies dreamed up by racists to harm black people, but I'm too stupid / too callous to care about or understand the history of these policies and what their effects actually are, I just believe that the policies would be great because I'm a low information right-winger and Fox News told me they were good policies." (Not that these people have the self-awareness enough to realize that's what the truth is, as we see regularly on these forums.)
                            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              This sort of response is a big part of the problem. It doesnt recognize that the responsibility for change rests mostly in the hands of those with the power. We, as a nation, have a responsibility to do the things that need to be done to right the centuries old wrongs that have produced the inequities that perpetuate the poverty, educational, and opportunity distinctions that follow racial lines. It is a self perpetuating system that requires intervention in order to change.
                              Your response doesn't engage with my post. It's boilerplate text that ignores what I wrote. Most of it misses the point entirely.

                              If " We, as a nation, have a responsibility..." that includes the responsibilty born by everyone in a society to a greater or lesser degree.

                              People are responsible for their own choices and reactions to the situations they face in life. They are responsible for determining, as best they can, the true motives and beliefs that lead others to do things that disadvantage, or inconvenience, or hurt them. Jumping to conclusions (by anyone) is irresponssible and hurtful to society. That's not the way to heal problems like racism.
                              ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                                What about a situation where a policy was created by people who were racist, and who intended the policy to have negative effects on black people, but where decades have passed since then and the same policy still exists but is being championed by different people who are not all aware of its racist origins and who themselves aren't personally racist?
                                It would be a racist policy in conception and origin. People who nowadays support the policy may or may not be racist, depending on their motives and beliefs.
                                ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                                Comment

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