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Nunes sues CNN over 'demonstrably false' Ukraine report

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  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    It's true that obstruction is a crime. However, it's not true that Trump is guilty of obstruction since he is permitted by law to challenge an investigation in court.




    Telling your staff not to cooperate is not challenging the investigation in court. Its purposefully interfering in an investigation - obstruction.

    Similarly, bribery and treason are crimes, but the definitions the Democrats include in their report are absurdly broad to the point of being all but meaningless. For instance, they define bribery as "when the President offers, solicits, or accepts something of personal value to influence his own official actions."

    You dont appear to understand the emoluments clause, because it is there precisely to prevent what is outlined in the sentence you are complaining about. No, it is not acceptable to accept anything of personal value in return for specific official actions. It has never been ok. It has always been against the law and the constitution.

    By that standard, what politician isn't guilty of "bribery"? They even go so far in their report as to defend the impeachment of Andrew Jackson which is widely regarded as a textbook example of how not to impeach a president! Furthermore, they attempt to establish the absurd rule that a president can be impeached without ever committing a crime, and that second- and third-hand hearsay -- which is to say office gossip -- is good enough evidence to remove a president from office.
    The case against the president is not based on second and third hand hearsay.

    I can't imagine you would be you be so supportive of the Democrat party's efforts if they were against a president you actually liked, but in your obsessive anti-Trump mindset, anything goes as long it removes the bad orange man from power.
    There is no person I would excuse for doing the things trump has done and is doing as regards ukraine. Period
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 12-09-2019, 09:08 PM.
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      There is plenty of evidence of the underlying crime that's alleged of the subject, i.e. of Trump, but obstructing Congress from investigating that alleged crime is a crime in and of itself. It also points to the consciousness of guilt in the subject. If it were a typical citizen, he'd have been arrested and charged with obstruction. How is it that you Trumpsters can be so dumb as to not understand why Trump has been obstructing in every which way he can for years now?
      Jim, breathe. The Strawberry just did a better job of explaining your post than you did. At least I think he did - I can't make heads or tails out of what you wrote.

      There is no case for obstruction that will fly. The Court would likely grant certiorari - and their first question would be 'why didn't you seek relief on the subpoenas?'. After a very pregnant pause, lawyers would tuck tail and run.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

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      • Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
        Nestled inside there, hanging on for dear life, is a coherent thought.
        [O]bstruction of [an] investigation is a crime.
        Okay... I guess. You sure?

        Which is all beside the point, anyway. This soon-to-be-impeachment is about abuse of power, and in particular, about an abuse of power pairing Trump's personal political interest and the Russian national interest against our national interest paired with the Ukrainian national interest in rooting out corruption in their justice system and resisting Russia's incursions into Crimea and the Donbass region.
        I was having enough trouble with Jim's grammar optional post.

        Yes, obstructing an investigation is a crime, but there are more than a thousand prosecutors publicly lined up to handle the obstruction charges as soon as he's out of office. That's soon enough for me, if it weren't for the continuing corrosion at Justice and State.
        The Dems have shot this bit in the foot - with a bazooka. It'll die a horrible death at trial.
        But if there's no underlying crime, that kind of prosecution is too much for my taste like the "resisting arrest" arrests with no crime to justify the arrest that was being resisted, not to say there aren't qualitative differences between obstructing a local cop and a well respected (and unquestionably conservative) former FBI director.
        Stop it! That's almost reasonable enough to agree with - you know better!
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

        Quill Sword

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          Jim, breathe. The Strawberry just did a better job of explaining your post than you did. At least I think he did - I can't make heads or tails out of what you wrote.

          There is no case for obstruction that will fly. The Court would likely grant certiorari - and their first question would be 'why didn't you seek relief on the subpoenas?'. After a very pregnant pause, lawyers would tuck tail and run.
          Yup. Not only did they refuse to turn to the courts but when Charles Kupperman asked the courts for direction on his subpoena, Schiff quickly dropped the subpoena.

          That has fewer legs to stand on than an earthworm.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
            Okay... I guess. You sure?
            I'm sure.

            I was having enough trouble with Jim's grammar optional post.


            The Federalist papers are replete with concerns of foreign influence against our national interest, concerns that justified the inclusion of a formal process for impeaching a president.

            Trump is being influenced by Russia, against our national interest.

            There's a long list of particulars, ranging from support for the Russian's Crimean annexation while he was a candidate to denial of Russian interference in the 2016 elections, from handing off our military bases in Syria to denying support for Russia's enemies in Ukraine.

            The direct documentation and testimony on the last of those will see him impeached. The lack of same for more of them will likely see him acquitted.

            The Dems have shot this bit in the foot - with a bazooka. It'll die a horrible death at trial.
            You're confusing the impeachment inquiry for the obstruction charges, which are legal, not political. He's got no chance of defending himself against Mueller's detailed incidents of obstruction when they come to trial, and I've got over a thousand exhibits of evidence on that.

            The confusing is understandable, though, as Jim was talking about obstruction of Congress, which will likely show up as an article of impeachment as well.

            Stop it! That's almost reasonable enough to agree with - you know better!
            Mea culpa.

            I'll try to be more partisan in the future, but just because you're cute.

            The lies we tell when ...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

              The lies we tell when ...
              ...we have perfect hair?

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • andrew: Yeah, okay. Number one, our favorite “hi i’m losing to an imaginary internet cow” representative devin nunes from your state has sued cnn for a million-trillion-billion dollars – actually it is $435,350,000. I like the additional 350,000, that’s a-

                thomas: Yeah, yeah.

                Andrew: That’s a nice touch. Alleging defamation by putting out a hit piece that exposes his factual ties to crooked ukrainian politicians.

                Thomas: Yeah.

                Andrew: This is yet another, in the long – the reason i had this on the “we can’t bother discussing this” is because devin nunes is an idiot who files frivolous meritless lawsuits. Someone even asked, and i thought that this question was worth answering, wouldn’t that expose him to discovery? You’re damn right it would!

                Thomas: Hmm, yeah.

                Andrew: [laughs] right? Because remember, of a public official, the standard for defamation, we’ve said it only several hundred times on this show, is the new york times v. Sullivan actual malice standard. It is then a defense for cnn that the things that they printed about devin nunes, the things that they said about devin nunes, were accurate or [laughs] and this is all you need for new york times standard, is done under ordinary journalistic standards. Not done with actual malice, that is knowing falsity or reckless disregard for the truth.

                So in the event that it went forward at all, you would say okay, well we’re gonna serve discovery on you for all of your connections to these ukrainian prosecutors. Devin nunes has no intention of turning over that information. [laughs] will not turn over that information. So in the even that we ever got to the discovery phase he would refuse to comply with cnn’s reasonable discovery requests and as a result then the court would either order him to turn it over or order him to – or would grant summary judgment in favor of cnn on the defamation counts for nunes’ failure to cooperate in exploring a valid affirmative defense, namely that the story is true.

                So this is a headline-grabbing stunt by somebody who doesn’t seem to understand the difference between notoriety and fame. There you go.
                oa339
                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                “not all there” - you know who you are

                Comment


                • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  oa339
                  malarkey
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                    ...



                    You're confusing the impeachment inquiry for the obstruction charges, which are legal, not political. He's got no chance of defending himself against Mueller's detailed incidents of obstruction when they come to trial, and I've got over a thousand exhibits of evidence on that.
                    No, I'm not - the House Dems never contested any of their subpoenas - not once. If the subpoena is valid, why not? If they actually wanted the info/testimony, why not? If they aren't going to seek relief, why should the Exec bother to respond? And then we get into the real meat of validity and exec privilege.

                    But it's the failure to seek redress/relief that kills any obstruction of justice case. There's no such thing as obstruction of congress (I think they do need Ex-lax, though).

                    The confusing is understandable, though, as Jim was talking about obstruction of Congress, which will likely show up as an article of impeachment as well.
                    No, I got it - he conflates them and I haven't bothered sorting it out. The real one is the only one that matters anyway.

                    Mea culpa
                    .

                    I'll try to be more partisan in the future, but just because you're cute.

                    The lies we tell when ...
                    I'll pretend to believe you.

                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      Jim, breathe. The Strawberry just did a better job of explaining your post than you did. At least I think he did - I can't make heads or tails out of what you wrote.

                      There is no case for obstruction that will fly. The Court would likely grant certiorari - and their first question would be 'why didn't you seek relief on the subpoenas?'. After a very pregnant pause, lawyers would tuck tail and run.
                      Obstruction is obvious, Tea, Twelve administration officials blocked by Trump from testifying and all documents requested have been denied. That's obstruction of Congress. There is no legal basis for the administration to obstruct the constitutional responsibility of congressional oversight in this way, and going through the courts, as has been made explicit in the Mcgahn subpoena case, would take years, which of course is the goal of the White House.

                      But, with an upcoming election, and being that this impeachment is about Trumps abuse of power with respect to his extorting a foreign country to interfere in U.S. elections, there was not time enough to enforce that testimony, and the release of those documents by going through the courts. The case no doubt would be even stronger if those witnesses came forth, and those documents were released, but the evidence they got from those patriotic americans who testified despite the Presidents demand not to do so was plenty sufficient to prove the Presidents abuse of office.

                      Now, of course there is the probability that, like you, the unprincipled Senate Republicans, though knowing better, will ignore the evidence, pretend its a hoax, and fail to convict, but the democrats, though knowing that, have no choice but to abide by their oath to protect the Constitution from domestic enemies like Trump.
                      Last edited by JimL; 12-10-2019, 11:14 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Obstruction is obvious, Tea, Twelve administration officials blocked by Trump from testifying and all documents requested have been denied. That's obstruction of Congress. There is no legal basis for the administration to obstruct the constitutional responsibility of congressional oversight in this way, and going through the courts, as has been made explicit in the Mcgahn subpoena case, would take years, which of course is the goal of the White House.

                        But, with an upcoming election, and being that this impeachment is about Trumps abuse of power with respect to his extorting a foreign country to interfere in U.S. elections, there was not time enough to enforce that testimony, and the release of those documents by going through the courts. The case no doubt would be even stronger if those witnesses came forth, and those documents were released, but the evidence they got from those patriotic americans who testified despite the Presidents demand not to do so was plenty sufficient to prove the Presidents abuse of office.

                        Now, of course there is the probability that, like you, the unprincipled Senate Republicans, though knowing better, will ignore the evidence, pretend its a hoax, and fail to convict, but the democrats, though knowing that, have no choice but to abide by their oath to protect the Constitution from domestic enemies like Trump.
                        Oh, give it a rest - the Dems are the political hacks here.
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Quill Sword

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          Oh, give it a rest - the Dems are the political hacks here.
                          I'm sure you'd have said the same during the Nixon Impeachment, it's your team, which apparently is more important to you than your Constitution.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                            Oh, give it a rest - the Dems are the political hacks here.
                            On the contrary, with only a few exceptions, the republicans have abandoned their oaths of office in a trade for power. We can only hope there is a majority in this country that will give them all free rides back to the private sector over the next 3 years
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Obstruction is obvious, Tea
                              00000000000000ab000-00aaam.jpg

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                I'm sure you'd have said the same during the Nixon Impeachment, it's your team, which apparently is more important to you than your Constitution.
                                A) No, I opposed Nixon - and wasn't overly thrilled with the pardon.
                                B) I was Democrat most of my life.
                                C) You're only anti-Trump. This sham flies in the face of the Constitution but all you care about is your corrupt, power abusing, Constitution destroying heroes leading your insane democrat tribe to victory, Pyrrhic though it be.
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                                Quill Sword

                                Comment

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