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Thread: Schiff Targets Political Rival, Journalist

  1. #101
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Which is materially distinct from "blankets and stuff" (drones, military radar, armored vehicles) and still counters your rhetorical accusation that Democratic politicians in Congress and the White House didn't care about Ukraine until it became an anti-Trump foil.
    No it didn't.

    It wasn't until they thought that they had a club to beat Trump with that we suddenly saw all the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the left about them not getting the weapons they needed -- not just equipment that would warn them that they were about to be killed. During the previous Administration there was no such concern.

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  3. #102
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    No it didn't.

    It wasn't until they thought that they had a club to beat Trump with that we suddenly saw all the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the left about them not getting the weapons they needed -- not just equipment that would warn them that they were about to be killed. During the previous Administration there was no such concern.
    The Obama administration didn't even care about Russian election meddling, said it was no big deal until they thought they could use the narrative to beat up on Trump.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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  5. #103
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    No it didn't.

    It wasn't until they thought that they had a club to beat Trump with that we suddenly saw all the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the left about them not getting the weapons they needed -- not just equipment that would warn them that they were about to be killed. During the previous Administration there was no such concern.
    The original accusation was:

    "When exactly did the Democrats start giving a rat's... whisker about helping the Ukraine against Russia? They certainly didn't give a hoot all through the Obama Administration when they utterly refused to equip them with military aide and instead sent blankets and stuff."


    Now that isn't true and is easily shown to be false. But we didn't see a retraction. Instead, you shifted to:

    "
    The military aid was all in a defensive nature with no offensive weapons -- which was what they were begging for."


    Which is a very different claim! And given the chance to consider that 1) there's actually a meritorious discussion about whether arming Ukraine with lethal weapons is the best strategy to contain and counter Russian aggression in Ukraine, 2) time marches forward and a persuasive strategy in 2015 may no longer be persuasive in 2018, and 3) most people do not actually care enough about foreign military engagement and strategy to pay close attention to events even after they're front-page news items, you still chose to default to picking up your torch and pitchfork to make demonstrably false partisan claims.

    The sentiment didn't change throughout, even as the factual basis you used to justify the sentiment eroded to nothing. That's a bad sign.

    --Sam
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"


  6. #104
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    When exactly did the Democrats start giving a rat's... whisker about helping the Ukraine against Russia? They certainly didn't give a hoot all through the Obama Administration when they utterly refused to equip them with military aide and instead sent blankets and stuff. I guess they could use them to wrap their dead or something.

    No. The Democrats now only "care" because they see them as a tool to exploit and use in their never-ending TDS-fueled jihad against Trump.
    First, it's "aid."

    And even more first ...

    ... the unanimous response is ranging from "no, you," to more partisan hackery, as if a heavy enough counter-accusation, repeatedly frequently enough, will somehow make the facts go away, or provide an excuse for the hackery.

    It's still nope. And more still nope.

    Even if your lies were true, they wouldn't amount to a defense of Trump's Russian butt-licking. And only the Russians call Ukraine "the Ukraine" anymore. They do it because it demeans Ukraine as an independent country. That's not a good look on someone accusing someone else of failing to support Ukraine against the Russians.

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  8. #105
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    No it didn't.

    It wasn't until they thought that they had a club to beat Trump with that we suddenly saw all the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the left about them not getting the weapons they needed -- not just equipment that would warn them that they were about to be killed. During the previous Administration there was no such concern.
    In point of fact, the wailing and gnashing was coming from everyone but Trump, but apparently, because the Democrats were also opposed, the perpetual partisan hack bot doing your posting nowadays obligates you to push the other way, even if it's also against the entirety of the Republican party and the Trump administration, too.

    Bolton, and the NSC, were opposed. State, and Pompeo, were opposed. Defense was opposed. The joint staff was opposed.

    It's just you and Trump on this, rougebot.

    And Mick Mulvaney, maybe.

    Also in point of fact, the lethal aid under Trump's administration, opposed by Trump himself, is strategic, not tactical. Unlike the training and professionalization of their military, begun on a bipartisan basis under Obama, the Javelins aren't actually being used to lethal effect. Their presence on the battlefield deters the deployment of Russian tanks, meaning Russian tanks don't enter the battlefield.

  9. #106
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    The Obama administration didn't even care about Russian election meddling, said it was no big deal until they thought they could use the narrative to beat up on Trump.
    That's false, ignorant, and in my opinion you understand it to be a lie. President Obama not only personally warned Putin to knock it off, but he also made it known to Congress what was taking place, and Moscow Mitch threatened that if Obama made that public that he, Moscow Mitch, would use it to to say that Obama was just trying to effect the election. It was the republican Congress, led by Moscow Mitch, that didn't care about Russian meddling, not the Obama administration.

  10. #107
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Meanwhile...

    Democrats have embraced the exact surveillance tactics they used to warn about

    For years, Democrats have been warning Americans about the dangers of law enforcement metadata collections. They cautioned that communication giants were working in cahoots with law enforcement to undermine our privacy. They said that metadata snooping might one day be used to smear other politicians.

    That was then. Today, House Intelligence Chairman Adam Schiff not only employs the power of the surveillance state to smear his colleagues and press his political agenda, he has set a number of dangerous precedents by “unmasking” his political rivals in an effort to smear them with innuendo.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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  12. #108
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Meanwhile...

    Democrats have embraced the exact surveillance tactics they used to warn about

    For years, Democrats have been warning Americans about the dangers of law enforcement metadata collections. They cautioned that communication giants were working in cahoots with law enforcement to undermine our privacy. They said that metadata snooping might one day be used to smear other politicians.

    That was then. Today, House Intelligence Chairman Adam Schiff not only employs the power of the surveillance state to smear his colleagues and press his political agenda, he has set a number of dangerous precedents by “unmasking” his political rivals in an effort to smear them with innuendo.

    What, exactly, have Democrats been warning Americans about the dangers of metadata collections? Has it not been the indiscriminate collection of metadata by agencies like the NSA?

    This is not that. These call records are subpoenas obtained from ISPs (e.g., AT&T, Verizon), not US government intelligence agencies, and obtained through lawful subpoena of Lev Parnas and Rudy Giuliani, two targets of the investigation. This is the traditional and uncontroversial collection of evidence during an investigation and has not been a subject of Democratic complaint over the years. What happened was that Solomon and Nunes were both caught being in contact, at best, or collusion, at worst, with the very people Trump enlisted to smear his own ambassador and push a Kremlin-approved conspiracy theory about Ukraine hacking the DNC/Cloudstrike servers.

    And -- I gotta say -- folks here know the difference. It wouldn't need to be explained again if people would just stop trying to latch onto each and every new thing bad actors are trying to make into a diversionary outrage.

    --Sam
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"


  13. #109
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLamebrain View Post
    That's false, ignorant, and in my opinion you understand it to be a lie. President Obama not only personally warned Putin to knock it off, but he also made it known to Congress what was taking place, and Moscow Mitch threatened that if Obama made that public that he, Moscow Mitch, would use it to to say that Obama was just trying to effect the election. It was the republican Congress, led by Moscow Mitch, that didn't care about Russian meddling, not the Obama administration.
    Yes, after they decided it was something they could use to beat up Trump. Obama originally blew it off.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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  15. #110
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juvenal View Post
    In point of fact, the wailing and gnashing was coming from everyone but Trump, but apparently, because the Democrats were also opposed, the perpetual partisan hack bot doing your posting nowadays obligates you to push the other way, even if it's also against the entirety of the Republican party and the Trump administration, too.

    Bolton, and the NSC, were opposed. State, and Pompeo, were opposed. Defense was opposed. The joint staff was opposed.

    It's just you and Trump on this, rougebot.

    And Mick Mulvaney, maybe.

    Also in point of fact, the lethal aid under Trump's administration, opposed by Trump himself, is strategic, not tactical. Unlike the training and professionalization of their military, begun on a bipartisan basis under Obama, the Javelins aren't actually being used to lethal effect. Their presence on the battlefield deters the deployment of Russian tanks, meaning Russian tanks don't enter the battlefield.
    Which begs the question why the Obama administration refused to provide them. I appreciate you torpedoing your own post, clever insults not withstanding.
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