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Intersectionality as a Divisive Doctrine

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  • #16
    Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
    I keep encountering discussions which include the topic of intersectionality.
    Is it just bunches of conservatives fear-mongering about "intersectionality", and pretending it's a big issue?

    Because, as a progressive/ liberal myself, I don't think I've ever used the word. I typically watch about an hour of US progressive youtube a day, and the frequency with which they mention the word is perhaps about twice a year... i.e. close to never.

    So if progressives aren't actually talking about it very much at all, but you're seeing it a lot, I'm guessing it was from conservatives who were actually the ones talking about it, presumably fear-mongering about it, and that the conservatives did ten times or a hundred times more talking about it than any liberals they were talking about ever did. Presumably they dug up an example of a single liberal somewhere in the whole of America referring to it, and then themselves talked about 10 times more than that obscure liberal person did.

    This doctrine seems intent on increasing division and increasing dissatisfaction in this country.
    I would say that, yes, conservatives are intent on increasing division and increasing dissatisfaction in your country, and they've spotted that whining and fear-mongering about "intersectionality" is a useful tool in doing this.

    Try stopping watching Faux News or whatever propaganda source you're listening to, it seems to be actively misleading you.

    White men are supposed to be self-deprecatory about their 'privilege.'
    Not quite. I'm a white man. It's great. I'm glad I am one.

    Why is it great? One reason is that it makes a wide variety of things in life easier, and opens up all sorts of opportunities that I wouldn't have if I were a woman or a person of color. So I'm glad I'm white, glad I'm a man, glad I was able to get a great education, glad my parents are financially well off, glad I live in a country that is free and nice, etc. I've been able to achieve a lot in my life so far, and a lot of that would have been harder or even impossible if I hadn't had some of those advantages.

    If I'd been born in a rural African tribal village, my life would probably have sucked by comparison. For starters, the lack of healthcare that I needed to save my life as a child and got for free because I live in a country where the government provides it, would have probably killed me in Africa. If I'd lived in America it might have bankrupted my parents, and probably I then wouldn't have been able to afford good schooling, and I doubt in the US I could have afforded the high-quality university education I was able to get here through government funding. Acknowledging privilege is about having the self-awareness of those sorts of things, and how they contributed to your life. The things I achieved, I achieved because I worked for them, but they would have been harder or impossible if I hadn't had certain advantages that some people don't have.

    The least privileged are to be handed over the predominate voice and power.
    No. That is simply not at all what the progressive/liberal view on the subject is.

    The progressive view is that we have a moral obligation to help those less fortunate than us. That we have a moral obligation to correct injustice in the world where we can and to not be blind to it.

    So in cases where the system as it currently exists is discriminating against minorities, where it is removing power they would otherwise have if all were equal, where it is making them less able to achieve things that someone in the majority, then morally we ought to act to right this injustice if possible.

    It is certainly not true that the least privileged should be "handed over the predominate voice and power" - that would be horrendously unjust, and utterly against the basic equality of human beings that is the foundation of progressive moral values. Rather, the progressive ideal would be that the least privileged have, per person, the same voice and power that the most privileged have - i.e. ideally that nobody be more privileged than anyone else.

    This is strong in virtue signaling -- showing how righteous you are by following the party line. The thing I see happening is that this is promoting groupthink -- that your decisions are not from you own intellect but are based on what values seem to be approved by the community. In its worst manifestations, people seem to be under mind controlled behavior
    Peer pressure and groupthink have been things since ancient history. They are, for good or ill, common in humans, and seem unlikely to go away anytime soon.

    Liberals on the whole, do tend to be less influenced by these things than conservatives, but they can still be subject to them (liberalism/conservativism in politics correlates to a core psychology personality trait known as Openness to experience, with liberals on the whole tending toward being more likely to be curious, free-thinking, intelligent individuals, open to learning about new ideas outside of those they have been told before, while conservatives tend toward the opposite traits instead valuing firm commitment to what their group teaches and typically having a disinterest in exploring other ideas).

    We may see this in the House where Dems aren't allowed to vote independently but are to follow what Pelosi wants.
    As much as I critique Pelosi for being spineless, for being incompetent at PR, for her opposition to the progressive wing in the Dem party, and for her pandering to the centrist/corporatist wing in the Dem party, and for her being a centrist moderate herself, and for having zero charisma, and for suckling at the teat of big-donor money... I'll give her this: She's really good at phoning her democratic congresspeople and asking them how they are going to vote, and so she always knows in advance going into a vote whether she has the votes to support it or not. She always backs out of having a vote that she knows she'll lose, preferring inaction over having a publicly divided democratic party. And she also seems pretty good at doing deals within the party so that individuals who weren't initially willing to vote on a particular bill get convinced to vote on it, and then later others will support their own bills who might not otherwise have.

    She's certainly got the skill of what's known as 'whipping votes' (the term 'Whip' is the title of a person in a parliamentary system who tries to cajole people within the party to all vote in unison as much as possible). This is usually considered a desirable skill for someone in a party to have (within reason), and the Republicans in the House and Senate seem to be good at it too, themselves voting as a bloc most of the time.

    Chuck Schumer, unfortunately, seems to lack that skill. In addition to having all the many failings of Nancy Pelosi, he's also utterly incompetent when it comes to whipping votes, with one retiring Dem Senator noting that never once had he put the slightest pressure on her to vote for a Democrat bill when she was trying to decide whether she was going to. As far as I can tell, there's nothing Chuck Schumer isn't bad at. Whereas, as actively evil as Mitch McConnell is in terms of his bills, his actions, his appointments, and his lies to the media, he at least seems competent at doing politics and running his own party. If I believed in God, I would pray for a Democratic senate leader who was at least a quarter as competent as McConnell at actually doing his job. Pelosi in the Senate would be great in that regard.
    Last edited by Starlight; 12-07-2019, 01:56 AM.
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    • #17
      Starlight, it is nice to hear that you don't promote intersectionality.

      I have to give up on you for the moment. If you are not able to recognize the interest of conservatives for stopping racism (and I suppose there are few of any people in America who are not agaisnt racism), I've run out steam trying to convince you of anything worthwhile.

      I will say again that racism is not a strong problem. There is no institutionalized racism (apart from the welfare system, I suppose). People and companies are pretty much desiring (and legally compelled) to be unbiased in their employment practices. Nor does it appear that racism is a big issue in the communities. So, let's lay down our differences and promote harmony among people as much as possible. "As much as possible, be at peace with all men" -- this is the instruction by Paul. This is the spirit of Christianity. This is a big part of what we celebrate at Christmas. (Sorry that I threw in a bit of virtue signalling.)

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      • #18
        Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
        This is strong in virtue signaling
        There's something ironic about you saying this, while bringing up a trope that's popular amongst conservatives on a right-wing Christian forum.

        Personally I find the concept of virtue signaling vague and empty of meaning. It seems to apply to anyone doing anything that alligns with their worldview.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          There's something ironic about you saying this, while bringing up a trope that's popular amongst conservatives on a right-wing Christian forum.

          Personally I find the concept of virtue signaling vague and empty of meaning. It seems to apply to anyone doing anything that alligns with their worldview.
          The most blatant example of what I saw of virtue signaling was of male students 'confessing' all their privileges before asking a question of a speaker who changed from a feminist to an anti-feminist. I'm not sure of the whole motives of these young men that we doing this. It seems that it was to almost appease others in the audience -- to let the women and minorities know that he was asking a question from their framework.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
            The most blatant example of what I saw of virtue signaling was of male students 'confessing' all their privileges before asking a question of a speaker who changed from a feminist to an anti-feminist. I'm not sure of the whole motives of these young men that we doing this. It seems that it was to almost appease others in the audience -- to let the women and minorities know that he was asking a question from their framework.
            But what makes that virtue signalling, over say a Christian, in a Christian crowd, saying things Christians agree with?

            Just seems like an empty concept that amounts to "Liberals say liberal stuff"

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
              But what makes that virtue signalling, over say a Christian, in a Christian crowd, saying things Christians agree with?

              Just seems like an empty concept that amounts to "Liberals say liberal stuff"
              What I saw ... if Christians were doing this ... each Christian would have to say "I was a meth-user sex addict who smoked heavy and didn't feed stray dogs" whenever asking a question. The Christians then who had more sins to list then have better qualifications to ask the question.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                What I saw ... if Christians were doing this ... each Christian would have to say "I was a meth-user sex addict who smoked heavy and didn't feed stray dogs" whenever asking a question. The Christians then who had more sins to list then have better qualifications to ask the question.
                That’s an odd reading of virtue signaling. It seems equally consistent to call a conservative on tweb mentioning they’re against abortion as virtue signaling.

                Again the term is used way too much, and far too broadly.

                It is not only used about this weird practice you mention.

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