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Thread: False Idol — Why the Christian Right Worships Donald Trump

  1. #131
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    Where is it wrong? Laying on of hands is no more indicative of worship than Jesus being baptized is indicative of redemption from sin.
    You are correct. But laying on of hands is very much associated with acceptance, approval, and blessing. And given Trumps overt lack of repentance and humility, and his abusive nature and behavior, it is not a very good message to send. The church h cant pass on such an overt and public message of approval to such a person, though its message of mercy and grace to those that do repent and seek forgiveness still applies. All are welcome, if they but repent their old ways and put on Christ.
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    You are correct. But laying on of hands is very much associated with acceptance, approval, and blessing. And given Trumps overt lack of repentance and humility, and his abusive nature and behavior, it is not a very good message to send. The church h cant pass on such an overt and public message of approval to such a person, though its message of mercy and grace to those that do repent and seek forgiveness still applies. All are welcome, if they but repent their old ways and put on Christ.
    I agree that's it's silly and might even be inappropriate for Christians do get THAT involved in politics, but that's just my opinion. But they always do that to any Republican potus. They did it with Bush. There's nothing exceptional about it with Trump here. It's part of political tribalism, that's all it is.
    Last edited by seanD; 12-09-2019 at 08:42 PM.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  3. #133
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    I agree that's it's silly and might even be inappropriate for Christians do get THAT involved in politics, but that's just my opinion. But they always do that to any Republican potus. They did it with Bush. There's nothing exceptional about it with Trump here. It's part of political tribalism, that's all it is.
    No surprise I'm sure, but I think trump crosses lines that dont allow for much ambiguity in terms of its inappropriateness.
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  4. #134
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whag View Post
    You have to be blind and pig ignorant to not see televangelists literally laid hands on Trump and serve as his spiritual advisors.
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    That's not worship. Ironic that you're calling MM ignorant while exposing your own ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by whag View Post
    If anything short of literally praying to someone or something isn’t worship, then you can’t say anything is worship. That invalidates the OP but also MM’s counterargument. ...
    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    In fact, it's just the opposite. Laying on of hands implies flaws of the one whom they're laying hands on which necessitates that action.
    Quote Originally Posted by whag View Post
    Now we’re splitting hairs, as Jesus was baptized, which also implies flaws. Moreover, we’re not taking about LITERAL worship but bootlicking and fawning, which those televangelists definitely are, being hungry for power. You know that many of Trump’s followers are just that.
    I have mixed views of that event, not least the fact that it was used as a photo-op. Laying on hands is a legitimate practice in Scripture, serving various purposes from healing to blessing to ordaining to ministry or leadership. I'm concerned that the "blessing" (fine and dandy) and the "ordaining" (not cool) aspects could get confounded.

    But I really don't see it as akin to "worship."
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  5. #135
    tWebber whag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    I have mixed views of that event, not least the fact that it was used as a photo-op. Laying on hands is a legitimate practice in Scripture, serving various purposes from healing to blessing to ordaining to ministry or leadership. I'm concerned that the "blessing" (fine and dandy) and the "ordaining" (not cool) aspects could get confounded.

    But I really don't see it as akin to "worship."
    Let’s just all agree that neither Trumpers nor Obama supporters LITERALLY worshipped either president. OP is a veiled troll and MM is just being a mini version of POTUS himself. All Presidents have their bootlicking supporters who see no wrong in what their POTUS does politically. MM appears to be that kind of Trump defender—more like a Kelley Anne Conway than an Anne Coulter. I’ve seen nothing in MM’s defenses of Trump that suggest anything otherwise. He has completely bought his bill of goods. That’s serious delusion, even if he doesn’t “worship” the dude.

  6. Amen Sparko amen'd this post.
  7. #136
    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whag View Post
    retarded smirk
    Triggered.

    Quote Originally Posted by whag View Post
    I used to defend Obama until I realized he’s just another cult of personality.
    'Laying hands on in prayer' = worship? You got fooled (and again with Jordan Peterson), and you're projecting your own weaknesses on others.
    Trump is basically "Bruce Wayne pretending to be a foppish retarded billionaire" tier genius, in case nerds need a simpler metaphor.

  8. #137
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whag View Post
    If anything short of literally praying to someone or something isn’t worship, then you can’t say anything is worship. That invalidates the OP but also MM’s counterargument. The truth is that blind loyalty to any POTUS is somewhere in between. Since I regard all the presidents since Reagan cults of personality, then I’m not among this group.
    Similar things can be said about sports teams, a series of books, TV shows etc.

    I think you cheapen the word "religion" when you expand it thusly.

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  9. #138
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whag View Post
    Let’s just all agree that neither Trumpers nor Obama supporters LITERALLY worshipped either president.
    Um...



    Apparently it is yet again time to remind folks just how much adoring veneration and reverence was given to Obama by his supporters.

    • Like when Newsweek editor Evan Thomas was doing when he declared on MSNBC's "Hardball" to host Chris Matthews (who notoriously once said that he felt a “thrill up his leg” after saying "This is bigger than Kennedy. ... This is the New Testament," while covering then-Senator Barack Obama): "I mean in a way Obama’s standing above the country, above – above the world, he’s sort of God." Sort of God.


    • And when Ezra Klein gushed about Obama in The American Prospect that,

      "He is not the Word made flesh, but the triumph of word over flesh, over color, over despair. The other great leaders I’ve heard guide us towards a better politics, but Obama is, at his best, able to call us back to our highest selves, to the place where America exists as a glittering ideal, and where we, its honored inhabitants, seem capable of achieving it, and thus of sharing in its meaning and transcendence.


    • And of course there's when Mark Morford, columnist and culture critic for the San Francisco Chronicle and SFGate.com, proclaimed that Obama "isn’t really one of us" and how

      "many spiritually advanced people I know (not coweringly religious, mind you, but deeply spiritual) identify Obama as a Lightworker, that rare kind of attuned being who has the ability to lead us not merely to new foreign policies or health care plans or whatnot, but who can actually help usher in a new way of being on the planet, of relating and connecting and engaging with this bizarre earthly experiment. These kinds of people actually help us evolve. They are philosophers and peacemakers of a very high order, and they speak not just to reason or emotion, but to the soul."


    • Charlie Rangel (D-NY) would go to churches in his Congressional district in Harlem declaring that "God sent us Barack Obama."


    • In her The Gospel According to Apostle Barack, released right before the 2012 election , Florida A&M professor Barbara A. Thompson equates Barack Obama to Jesus, and proclaims that his God-given mission is to bring "heaven on earth."


    • Or how in a September, 2008 opinion essay in the Smith College Sophian titled "I Will Follow Him: Obama As My Personal Jesus," associate editor Maggie Mertens proclaimed "Obama is my Jesus." She went on to say
      While you may be overtly religious and find this to be idol-worshipping, or may be overtly politically correct and just know that everything in that sentence could be found offensive, I'm afraid it's true anyway.

      She went on to say she was in the "middle of a bleak, hopeless period of my life" but then
      Then I found my miracle. Stumbling through my hopeless world, afraid to turn to anyone with my political questions of morality, my concerns about the afterlife of the country I called home, a voice spoke to me. Barack Obama bore to me his testimony...

      She continued writing about how "I came to Jesus/Obama" and concluded
      I've officially been saved, and soon, whether they like it or not, the rest of the country will be too. I will follow him, all the way to the White House, and I'll be standing there in our nation's capital in January 2009, when Barack Obama is inaugurated as the 44th president of the United States of America. In the name of Obama, Amen.


    • Or how on November 25th, 2012 at the Soul Train Awards program, televised worldwide on the BET network, Jamie Foxx whipped up the large crowd attending the event to a hand-waving, jumping-up-and-down frenzy by shouting, "First of all, give an honor to God and our Lord and Savior Barack Obama! Barack Obama!"



    • Or how Denmark's oldest largest newspaper Politiken on December 28, 2009 ran an editorial titled "Obama Greater Than Jesus: The U.S. president - the practical saviour of our times" It said, "He comes from humble beginnings and defends the weak and vulnerable, because he can identify himself with their conditions. And no we are not thinking of Jesus Christ, whose birthday has just been celebrated - but rather the President of the United States Barack Hussein Obama."

      The newspaper stated that if a comparison were to be made between Jesus and Obama, "it would, of course, inevitably be to Obama's advantage." And this: "Obama is, of course, greater than Jesus - if we have to play that absurd Christmas game."


    • Or how Nation of Islam's Louis Farrahkan proclaimed Obama was the Messiah


      "You are the instruments that God is going to use to bring about universal change, and that is why Barack has captured the youth. And he has involved young people in a political process that they didn't care anything about. That's a sign. When the Messiah speaks, the youth will hear, and the Messiah is absolutely speaking."


      00000000000000ab000-00aaam.jpg
      Notice what's attached to the podium


    • And let's not forget Barbara Walters saying how "they" thought Obama was the Messiah




    A poster that was sold at the Democratic National Convention in 2012 displayed the head of Obama, which faded into a graphic of an open Bible with the headline "Prophecy Fulfilled."



    To mark Obama’s 100th day of presidency, artist Michael D'Antuono unveiled a painting that he had crafted called "The Truth" which depicted Obama in the oval office wearing a crown of thorns and raising his arms as if on the cross.



    Depictions like this were hardly uncommon. Here is another called "The Hope can be a Cross" from noted artist and fashion designer Angelo Cruciani and displayed at Milan's trendy Galleria Voghera 11:


    And a couple covers from Newsweek:



    The fact is, the above exemplified the attitude that a substantial portion of his supporters believed. As Michelle Obama put it, "We have an amazing story to tell. This president has brought us out of the dark and into the light" (Matthew 4:16; cf. Micah 7:8)

    And of course Obama himself intoned that the earth itself was reacting positively to his merely winning the Democrat Party's nomination (that "this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal.") so profound was his presence. Moreover he was fond of declaring that "a light will shine through that window, a beam of light will come down upon you, you will experience an epiphany and you will suddenly realize that you must go to the polls and vote for Obama" like he did at the Lebanon Opera House, New Hampshire in 2008.

    And speaking of lights shining down from on high and resulting in epiphanies... Jonathan Alter the self-described liberal/progressive journalist, columnist and senior editor for Newsweek magazine for nearly 30 years and a mainstay at NBC for over 20 years related the following in his 2010 book The Promise: President Obama, Year One:

    Rabbi David Saperstein, reading from Psalms in English and Hebrew, noticed from the altar that the good men and women of the congregation that day, including the Bidens and other dignitaries, had not yet stood. Finally Bishop Vashti McKenzie of the African Methodist Church asked that everyone rise. At that moment Saperstein saw something from his angle of vision: "If I had seen it in a movie I would have groaned and said, 'Give me a break. That's so trite.'" A beam of morning light shown [sic] through the stained-glass windows and illuminated the president-elect's face. Several of the clergy and choir on the altar who also saw it marveled afterward about the presence of the Divine.



    Finally, there is the 2002 song "American Prayer" written by Bono of U2 and Dave Stewart of the Eurythmics that the latter did a version dedicated to Obama featuring a slew of celebutards like Forest Whitaker, Jason Alexander, Whoopi Goldberg, Margaret Cho and Joan Baez.




    No. We don't agree.
    Last edited by rogue06; 12-10-2019 at 01:24 AM.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  10. Amen mossrose, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  11. #139
    tWebber whag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Um...



    Apparently it is yet again time to remind folks just how much adoring veneration and reverence was given to Obama by his supporters.

    • Like when Newsweek editor Evan Thomas was doing when he declared on MSNBC's "Hardball" to host Chris Matthews (who notoriously once said that he felt a “thrill up his leg” after saying "This is bigger than Kennedy. ... This is the New Testament," while covering then-Senator Barack Obama): "I mean in a way Obama’s standing above the country, above – above the world, he’s sort of God." Sort of God.


    • And when Ezra Klein gushed about Obama in The American Prospect that,

      "He is not the Word made flesh, but the triumph of word over flesh, over color, over despair. The other great leaders I’ve heard guide us towards a better politics, but Obama is, at his best, able to call us back to our highest selves, to the place where America exists as a glittering ideal, and where we, its honored inhabitants, seem capable of achieving it, and thus of sharing in its meaning and transcendence.


    • And of course there's when Mark Morford, columnist and culture critic for the San Francisco Chronicle and SFGate.com, proclaimed that Obama "isn’t really one of us" and how

      "many spiritually advanced people I know (not coweringly religious, mind you, but deeply spiritual) identify Obama as a Lightworker, that rare kind of attuned being who has the ability to lead us not merely to new foreign policies or health care plans or whatnot, but who can actually help usher in a new way of being on the planet, of relating and connecting and engaging with this bizarre earthly experiment. These kinds of people actually help us evolve. They are philosophers and peacemakers of a very high order, and they speak not just to reason or emotion, but to the soul."


    • Charlie Rangel (D-NY) would go to churches in his Congressional district in Harlem declaring that "God sent us Barack Obama."


    • In her The Gospel According to Apostle Barack, released right before the 2012 election , Florida A&M professor Barbara A. Thompson equates Barack Obama to Jesus, and proclaims that his God-given mission is to bring "heaven on earth."


    • Or how in a September, 2008 opinion essay in the Smith College Sophian titled "I Will Follow Him: Obama As My Personal Jesus," associate editor Maggie Mertens proclaimed "Obama is my Jesus." She went on to say
      While you may be overtly religious and find this to be idol-worshipping, or may be overtly politically correct and just know that everything in that sentence could be found offensive, I'm afraid it's true anyway.

      She went on to say she was in the "middle of a bleak, hopeless period of my life" but then
      Then I found my miracle. Stumbling through my hopeless world, afraid to turn to anyone with my political questions of morality, my concerns about the afterlife of the country I called home, a voice spoke to me. Barack Obama bore to me his testimony...

      She continued writing about how "I came to Jesus/Obama" and concluded
      I've officially been saved, and soon, whether they like it or not, the rest of the country will be too. I will follow him, all the way to the White House, and I'll be standing there in our nation's capital in January 2009, when Barack Obama is inaugurated as the 44th president of the United States of America. In the name of Obama, Amen.


    • Or how on November 25th, 2012 at the Soul Train Awards program, televised worldwide on the BET network, Jamie Foxx whipped up the large crowd attending the event to a hand-waving, jumping-up-and-down frenzy by shouting, "First of all, give an honor to God and our Lord and Savior Barack Obama! Barack Obama!"



    • Or how Denmark's oldest largest newspaper Politiken on December 28, 2009 ran an editorial titled "Obama Greater Than Jesus: The U.S. president - the practical saviour of our times" It said, "He comes from humble beginnings and defends the weak and vulnerable, because he can identify himself with their conditions. And no we are not thinking of Jesus Christ, whose birthday has just been celebrated - but rather the President of the United States Barack Hussein Obama."

      The newspaper stated that if a comparison were to be made between Jesus and Obama, "it would, of course, inevitably be to Obama's advantage." And this: "Obama is, of course, greater than Jesus - if we have to play that absurd Christmas game."


    • Or how Nation of Islam's Louis Farrahkan proclaimed Obama was the Messiah


      "You are the instruments that God is going to use to bring about universal change, and that is why Barack has captured the youth. And he has involved young people in a political process that they didn't care anything about. That's a sign. When the Messiah speaks, the youth will hear, and the Messiah is absolutely speaking."


      00000000000000ab000-00aaam.jpg
      Notice what's attached to the podium


    • And let's not forget Barbara Walters saying how "they" thought Obama was the Messiah




    A poster that was sold at the Democratic National Convention in 2012 displayed the head of Obama, which faded into a graphic of an open Bible with the headline "Prophecy Fulfilled."



    To mark Obama’s 100th day of presidency, artist Michael D'Antuono unveiled a painting that he had crafted called "The Truth" which depicted Obama in the oval office wearing a crown of thorns and raising his arms as if on the cross.



    Depictions like this were hardly uncommon. Here is another called "The Hope can be a Cross" from noted artist and fashion designer Angelo Cruciani and displayed at Milan's trendy Galleria Voghera 11:


    And a couple covers from Newsweek:



    The fact is, the above exemplified the attitude that a substantial portion of his supporters believed. As Michelle Obama put it, "We have an amazing story to tell. This president has brought us out of the dark and into the light" (Matthew 4:16; cf. Micah 7:8)

    And of course Obama himself intoned that the earth itself was reacting positively to his merely winning the Democrat Party's nomination (that "this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal.") so profound was his presence. Moreover he was fond of declaring that "a light will shine through that window, a beam of light will come down upon you, you will experience an epiphany and you will suddenly realize that you must go to the polls and vote for Obama" like he did at the Lebanon Opera House, New Hampshire in 2008.

    And speaking of lights shining down from on high and resulting in epiphanies... Jonathan Alter the self-described liberal/progressive journalist, columnist and senior editor for Newsweek magazine for nearly 30 years and a mainstay at NBC for over 20 years related the following in his 2010 book The Promise: President Obama, Year One:

    Rabbi David Saperstein, reading from Psalms in English and Hebrew, noticed from the altar that the good men and women of the congregation that day, including the Bidens and other dignitaries, had not yet stood. Finally Bishop Vashti McKenzie of the African Methodist Church asked that everyone rise. At that moment Saperstein saw something from his angle of vision: "If I had seen it in a movie I would have groaned and said, 'Give me a break. That's so trite.'" A beam of morning light shown [sic] through the stained-glass windows and illuminated the president-elect's face. Several of the clergy and choir on the altar who also saw it marveled afterward about the presence of the Divine.



    Finally, there is the 2002 song "American Prayer" written by Bono of U2 and Dave Stewart of the Eurythmics that the latter did a version dedicated to Obama featuring a slew of celebutards like Forest Whitaker, Jason Alexander, Whoopi Goldberg, Margaret Cho and Joan Baez.




    No. We don't agree.
    Wow, you put a lot of work into that. Thanks for proving no one literally worshipped Obama and that black people (and many liberal whites) had the tendency to be exultant at having an African American in the WH—something most of the population literally thought was impossible given the history of America.

    Obama turned out to be just another snake like Clinton and Bush 2, and now Trump to an enormous degree (who debased the national discourse like no one before him) but I don’t blame African Americans for being excited about Obama’s election even to the point of comic apotheosis.

  12. #140
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whag View Post
    Wow, you put a lot of work into that. Thanks for proving no one literally worshipped Obama and that black people (and many liberal whites) had the tendency to be exultant at having an African American in the WH—something most of the population literally thought was impossible given the history of America.

    .
    It's just another one of rogue's zillion paragraphs of cherry-picked quotes, which he thinks makes for an unbeatable argument. It's endearing really.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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